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January 31, 2012 06:10PM | Moderator Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 1,186 |

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January 31, 2012 08:37PM | Registered: 3 years ago Posts: 1,025 |
The taser was not used to enforce the leash law. Once the person gave false information and then tried to run the minor infraction became irrelevant.Quote
Frank Furter
There is an issue of proportion here and whether this was disproportionate response. In some ways, this is a version of a high speed chase to enforce a minor traffic violation. It is certainly not appropriate to violate leash laws but one has to wonder about the degree of force chosen. Say the Ranger used a club and broke an arm or leg; what if the Ranger used her firearm? At some point, force is excessive. Does this level of response mean that if someone takes a parking ticket off their windshield and throws it on the ground, they can be shocked with a Taser and arrested? I suspect, since the ranger's name was not released the whole issue is under investigation and that there are going to be some consequences here.
January 31, 2012 09:10PM | Moderator Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
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Dave
The taser was not used to enforce the leash law. Once the person gave false information and then tried to run the minor infraction became irrelevant.Quote
Frank Furter
There is an issue of proportion here and whether this was disproportionate response. In some ways, this is a version of a high speed chase to enforce a minor traffic violation. It is certainly not appropriate to violate leash laws but one has to wonder about the degree of force chosen. Say the Ranger used a club and broke an arm or leg; what if the Ranger used her firearm? At some point, force is excessive. Does this level of response mean that if someone takes a parking ticket off their windshield and throws it on the ground, they can be shocked with a Taser and arrested? I suspect, since the ranger's name was not released the whole issue is under investigation and that there are going to be some consequences here.
February 01, 2012 12:09AM | Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 2,630 |
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Frank Furter
I don't think we should suspend judgment for every action by every law enforcement officer, just because they have certain powers. TASER policies typically allow use to prevent potential injury to officer or subject. I don't see any threat here. Restraint of a fleeing suspect needs to be put in context. If the officer shot the dogwalker, would that have been appropriate? If not a firearm, what level of action is appropriate? I don't know if we are required, when not under oath or arrest, to be absolutely truthful or compliant in all ways with every police order. We are certainly not required in public to carry identification. It is entirely possible that the man was trying to round up his dogs when he walked away. Legal experts can clarify those issues and details. Nevertheless, unless there is a lot of missing information, this situation is looks like excessive force to me even if there was some perceived violation beyond the leash issue. Imagine the uproar if a male police officer used a TASER in this situation against a female!
February 01, 2012 05:28AM | Moderator Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
There are no "strawmen" here-- merely examples to suggest that there is a spectrum of response andQuote
plawrence
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Frank Furter
I don't think we should suspend judgment for every action by every law enforcement officer, just because they have certain powers. TASER policies typically allow use to prevent potential injury to officer or subject. I don't see any threat here. Restraint of a fleeing suspect needs to be put in context. If the officer shot the dogwalker, would that have been appropriate? If not a firearm, what level of action is appropriate? I don't know if we are required, when not under oath or arrest, to be absolutely truthful or compliant in all ways with every police order. We are certainly not required in public to carry identification. It is entirely possible that the man was trying to round up his dogs when he walked away. Legal experts can clarify those issues and details. Nevertheless, unless there is a lot of missing information, this situation is looks like excessive force to me even if there was some perceived violation beyond the leash issue. Imagine the uproar if a male police officer used a TASER in this situation against a female!
Why are you trying to build strawmen here? The officier didn't use her firearm, she didn't use a club, nor break any bones of the suspect. She did what was needed to take the suspect into custody. ...
February 01, 2012 06:31PM | Registered: 3 years ago Posts: 1,025 |
Nor should we automatically thing bad of the officer, especially without the whole story.Quote
Frank Furter
I don't think we should suspend judgment for every action by every law enforcement officer, just because they have certain powers.
Yes, it does. Why did the miscreant lie to the officer and why did they try to run?Quote
TASER policies typically allow use to prevent potential injury to officer or subject. I don't see any threat here. Restraint of a fleeing suspect needs to be put in context.
The officer did not taser a dog walker. She tasered someone trying to flee and someone that gave false information.Quote
If the officer shot the dogwalker, would that have been appropriate?
Many questions need to be asked and answered. Since we do not have the whole story, we can't ask, nor answer, the appropriate questions.Quote
If not a firearm, what level of action is appropriate? I don't know if we are required, when not under oath or arrest, to be absolutely truthful or compliant in all ways with every police order. We are certainly not required in public to carry identification. It is entirely possible that the man was trying to round up his dogs when he walked away. Legal experts can clarify those issues and details. Nevertheless, unless there is a lot of missing information, this situation is looks like excessive force to me even if there was some perceived violation beyond the leash issue. Imagine the uproar if a male police officer used a TASER in this situation against a female!
February 01, 2012 07:56PM | Moderator Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
The whole sequence cannot be parsed that way. Otherwise if you are going to make that argument, you are suggesting that "false" information and terminating a conversation with a police officer solely is sufficient provocation to be shocked. I can postulate lots of situations where there could have been false information and someone who decided to leave the scene of conversation with a ranger--- someone with language problems, intoxication, hearing or psychiatric problems, urgent bowel or urinary needs, etc... LEO are not omniscient and personally, if I decided that an order of a LEO endangered me or others, I would not hesitate to disobey it. Furthermore, in this case, the initial issue and subsequent actions were not violent crimes or even felonies. Therefore, it is not surprising that many people consider the TASER use to be unwarranted in this scenario.QuoteThe officer did not taser a dog walker. She tasered someone trying to flee and someone that gave false information.Quote
If the officer shot the dogwalker, would that have been appropriate?
February 02, 2012 07:09PM | Registered: 3 years ago Posts: 1,025 |
My point was that the person cannot be described as just a "dog walker." Obviously there was more going on then just someone walking a dog.Quote
Frank FurterThe whole sequence cannot be parsed that way.QuoteThe officer did not taser a dog walker. She tasered someone trying to flee and someone that gave false information.Quote
If the officer shot the dogwalker, would that have been appropriate?
I made no such argument, and the miscreant did not just "terminate a conversation," he ran a way. He tried to flee the scene. There is much more to this story than just walking a dog.Quote
Otherwise if you are going to make that argument, you are suggesting that "false" information and terminating a conversation with a police officer solely is sufficient provocation to be shocked.
February 02, 2012 07:31PM | Moderator Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
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Dave
My point was that the person cannot be described as just a "dog walker." Obviously there was more going on then just someone walking a dog.Quote
Frank FurterThe whole sequence cannot be parsed that way.QuoteThe officer did not taser a dog walker. She tasered someone trying to flee and someone that gave false information.Quote
If the officer shot the dogwalker, would that have been appropriate?I made no such argument, and the miscreant did not just "terminate a conversation," he ran a way. He tried to flee the scene. There is much more to this story than just walking a dog.Quote
Otherwise if you are going to make that argument, you are suggesting that "false" information and terminating a conversation with a police officer solely is sufficient provocation to be shocked.
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from news report:
Babcock said the man the ranger was citing had already leashed his dogs and provided the ranger with all his personal information. According to Babcock, the dog owner repeatedly asked why he was being detained, and eventually told the ranger to cite him or he was going to walk away. "He started to walk away and she told him that she would Tase him if he walked another step," Babcock said, adding that the man turned and the ranger deployed her Taser, causing the man to fall to the ground.
February 02, 2012 08:17PM | Registered: 3 years ago Posts: 1,025 |
I'm not defending the officers actions. I'm not defending the perpetrator either. If one wants to call him a "dog walker" they must preface that with "illegal." He was an illegal dog walker that broke another law by giving false information to a police officer and borke another law by fleeing the scene of a crime. He is by no means just an innocent dog walker accosted by a police officer.Quote
Frank Furter
The details remain to be clarified, but so far as I can tell, even in the most extreme portray of a dog walker who could not be identified and perhaps insulted the officer and chose to run (it that even happened), I do not see justification of extreme force.
He should not have walked away. He should not have been illegally walking his dogs off leash.Quote
from news report:
Babcock said the man the ranger was citing had already leashed his dogs and provided the ranger with all his personal information. According to Babcock, the dog owner repeatedly asked why he was being detained, and eventually told the ranger to cite him or he was going to walk away. "He started to walk away and she told him that she would Tase him if he walked another step," Babcock said, adding that the man turned and the ranger deployed her Taser, causing the man to fall to the ground.
February 02, 2012 09:29PM | Moderator Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
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Dave
I'd say that BOTH are equally guilty of bad behavior.
February 02, 2012 11:07PM | Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 1,136 |
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Frank Furter
I find it strange that we are not required to carry ID, yet the police can require identification and have a mechanism to determine if stated ID is correct.
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A green card is issued to all permanent residents as proof that they are authorized to live and work in the United States. If you are a permanent resident age 18 or older, you are required to have a valid green card in your possession at all times.
February 02, 2012 10:25PM | Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 1,136 |
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Frank Furter
According to the information available to the park at this point, the incident began as a routine educational contact about the National Park Service rules on dog walking.The incident developed into a more serious law enforcement situation when the person being contacted provided false information to the ranger, and refused to heed repeated orders to remain at the scene while the ranger was in contact with the park dispatch center to confirm his identity.
In December 2011, Rancho Corral de Tierra came under the management of the National Park Service. Golden Gate National Recreation Area will continue to work hard to build close partnerships with the existing users of, and the communities that surround, Rancho Corral de Tierra.
February 03, 2012 06:10PM | Registered: 3 years ago Posts: 1,025 |
That's part of the problem. You can take ten eye witnesses and get 12 different stories. The way the witnesses are questioned can effect the outcome. In this case sympathy for the "victim" and distrust of authority may cloud their view of what actually happened. Or, maybe not. That's why lawyers get so rich.Quote
y_p_w
...There were witnesses. ...
February 09, 2012 04:46AM | Moderator Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
April 10, 2012 05:57AM | Moderator Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
April 21, 2012 04:16PM | Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 2,630 |
February 03, 2012 12:15AM | Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 1,136 |
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Frank Furter
Here is the NPS Press Release, which suggests to me that the event was not considered routine and will be investigated further. It seem unlikely that NPS educating the public commonly leads to TASER use (although it is likely that a lot fewer dogs will be off lease in the near future). Finally, I don't know what "educational contact" means-- it sounds like the Ranger had decided to cite the individual, not merely inform or converse. What role does a "stop and identify" interaction have to do with "educating"? Does the NPS check ID on everyone they are "educating"?
http://www.nps.gov/goga/parknews/law-enforcement-incident-in-rancho-corral-de-tierra.htm
Golden Gate National Recreation Area shares the general public's concern over the unfortunate incident between a National Park Service law enforcement ranger and a man walking his dog off leash at Rancho Corral de Tierra, in San Mateo County, on Sunday, January 29, 2012.As is standard practice, the park has initiated a review of the incident, which will be concluded in the next two weeks.At that time, another statement will be released.
According to the information available to the park at this point, the incident began as a routine educational contact about the National Park Service rules on dog walking.The incident developed into a more serious law enforcement situation when the person being contacted provided false information to the ranger, and refused to heed repeated orders to remain at the scene while the ranger was in contact with the park dispatch center to confirm his identity.
February 03, 2012 05:43AM | Moderator Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
Sure, the public tends to support the actions of law enforcement unquestioningly. As far back as the Civil Rights Movement at least, police actions, regardless how excessive have been deemed justified by many if not most of the population.Quote
y_p_w
..... Anyone really thinks that's an appropriate use of a Taser?
This is an interesting constitutional vs practical law enforcement question. Perhaps not providing a correct and verifiable identification may result in a charge of disorderly conduct and justify someone being placed under arrest.Quote
From the witness accounts, he was looking at other people wondering what authority she had to order him around when she wouldn't even tell him that he was being detained or arrested. Now what he probably should have done is not tell her his name. It wasn't going to be an arrest or citation, but turned into something bigger. I'm not even so sure that his giving her a fake name was necessarily illegal given the circumstances and the particulars of California law.
January 31, 2012 08:09PM | Admin Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 11,476 |
February 14, 2012 11:48AM | Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 1,577 |
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Re: Ranger uses stun gun on man walking dogs off-leash April 22, 2012 07:48PM | Registered: 2 years ago Posts: 1,366 |
April 22, 2012 08:58PM | Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 1,136 |
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hotrod4x5
The article link no longer works.
May 16, 2012 07:53PM | Moderator Registered: 4 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
