Re: Echo Lake via Elizabeth/Nelson Lake and other TM questions (and a mini rant)

Hey guys,

So this is my first time posting... I hope I'm not breaking any forum rules! I noticed that there was another post about Echo/Matthes Lake, but I don't think that those posts answered my questions...

I'm going to be backpacking in Yosemite this August (weekend of the 20th), and the original plan was to get to Mildred Lake via Cathedral Lakes and then back country towards Sunrise Lakes, then head out the next day. However, of course, Cathedral is ridiculous full for the next 3 months, and they probably filled up a while ago anyway. I chose this route because I did a similar one in Yosemite about 2 summers ago (my goodness time flies).

Anyhow, so I was thinking to challenge my group (group of 3, including me), and go back country a little further, and try and get to Echo Lake for the first night via Unicorn Creek/Elizabeth Lake and down towards Nelson and then head West past Matthes and camp at Echo for the first night. My map-reading skills are slightly rusty at this point, and it seems doable (and it seems like a decent amount of people have gone towards Matthes from Elizabeth). However, I'm not quite sure what the best way to get to Echo from Elizabeth is. I'm sending in my permit request tomorrow, but before that, I want to make sure of what I'm doing (to some extent).

Does anybody know is the best way is to head down towards Echo Creek to the East of Matthes Crest, cross over to Matthes Lake, then head over towards Echo on the Southern tip of Matthes Crest? Or is is possible to head towards Echo directly to the West of Cockscomb and Matthes Crest and the East/South of Echo Peaks? Has anyone camped at Echo Lake? I haven't found many pictures of Echo Lake.

Finally, we want to head over towards Mildred Lake afterwards--would the best way to be head up the river (Cathedral Fork?) towards JMT, or downwards, following the river until we hit the trail that takes you towards Echo Valley and then hit up the JMT? Or how's the trek directly West from Echo Lake towards the Columbia Finger to hit the JMT?

(Rant with questions in next paragraph)
Sorry about the flood of questions... begin the head/only planner for the group makes me feel extremely responsible for the well-being and the enjoyment-level for my fellow backpackers. (Warning... here's a little rant... being the only planner is frustrating sometimes) They're relatively experienced backpackers: one is my usual backpacking partner, and the other has gone backpacking before, but never in the Sierra's (mainly desert/some forest in Southern California). My concern is that the latter is a cheap-a** and doesn't want to invest in any good hiking boots, thermals, fleece, down jackets, hiking pants (uses jeans instead) etc. Am I being overly-worried about him not having those, or is there an actual concern? I'm not so paranoid to need to get a GPS or whatnot (my hiking partner is that paranoid) considering that, where we're going, if we're lost, as long as we head North or West, we'll hit a road... we'll hit a trail regardless which direction we head. But am I right to be concerned about him not having the right hiking gear? I've always been more of a tool and so I invest in one good pair of fleece, one good pair of hiking boots, one down vest, one pair of hiking pants, etc, but maybe it's not always necessary for everyone? But jeans + non-fleece/down material = heavy/extra weight to me, and I'm not the strongest of all backpackers, and my body refuses to regulate temperature like a normal human being... but maybe it's okay for others? Would hiking in "walking shoes" (not even good tennis shoes) be okay, especially back country in that area? I know that each backpacker needs to be responsible for him/herself, but there's a point where you can become a burden on others, and I don't want to run into that situation.

Finally, does the weather get warmer or cooler by the mid/end of August? Should I expect higher highs or lower lows, or perhaps more milder temperatures? I know that the Sierra's can have a change of up to 35-45F in a day.

Thanks for anyone who read that rant... it's good to get things off your shoulders!

You'll be waiting awhile.

Did you read this:

http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,26080,26080#msg-26080

Since you are ranting... I will too...
This person pissed me off royally... I asked if the bozo ever went that way and there
was no answer for a long time... he says that some other people suggested it...
blah blah blah ... so I figure he knows which way to go...

O well... somehow they couldn't find the saddle. How? I have no idea.
Clueless is my guess. So does he post what the heck he did. No.
Makes me wanna give any advice, don't it?

Heh. I just read it. Yeah, it sucks when people don't update. I definitely wouldn't mind updating/giving feedback when I finally do it. I've just never been that way, and have less experience cross-country-ing it, so I wanted to know whether the pass down Echo creek and then cutting across towards the East would be best, or if the hike directly from Elizabeth Lake b/w Echo Peaks and Matthes Crest towards Echo isn't too bad.

There's pretty much a trail to Nelson Lake.

My point for that guy was I wanted to know if he knew which way to go....
or just wanted to be shoved in the general direction... or what...

I'd recommend going down Echo Creek from Elizabeth. It's a nice journey.
The saddle east of Matthes Crest is not too difficult.
On one occasion that I did the route with my wife we went to Nelson Lake and
hung out for some time... then proceeded over to Matthes Lake to camp.
Another time Old Dude Mike and I camped at Nelson one night then
went to Upper Cathedral on day 2... going over the saddle just W of Matthes.

Have fun

I presume you read this:
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,26329,26329#msg-26329

And looked at that map there.

See the saddle just east of Matthes Lake? You can go thru that to get to Echo Lake.
Or.. you can go all the way up and around N of Matthes Crest. Your choice.
Both are do-able.

I'd suggest you shoot for camping S. of Matthes Lake on day 1 so you can enjoy the journey.
Day 2 go to your next spot. Was it Mildred? There are a myriad of ways to go.
All do-able.. over to Echo then up to Cathedral Pass to trail...
Over to Echo then down to Echo Crk trail...

As far as your rant.... I wouldn't worry too much. The desert at night can get darn cold.
Just tell the person plan for near freezing (I use a 30 degree bag), and if you get cold..
well, you'll just have to suck it up for a night. You can only do so much for people that
won't listen.

Haha, I guess you can only do so much. I just don't want it him to drag the rest of the group down, or be in wet cotton all night... that could be dangerous in near-freezing temps. Well, I was hoping to get to Mildred in the afternoon to have time for a dip in the pool and for a hike up Tenaya Peak before dinner and all that jazz, which is why I wanted to shooe for Echo Lake the first night. So you think Echo Lake for day 1 is going to be a bad idea?

P.S. Also, YES, I did see that thread earlier! But I think that your chick-on photos were distracting me from the real information there, haha.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2010 04:58PM by waitingforgodot.

I hear ya.

You should be able to make Echo Lake in a day. (you know you could just go from Budd Lake)
Wifey and I went from TH all the way to Emerick on day 1 via Elizabeth...
Going up to Cath Pass looks much simpler route from Echo Lake to Mildred.

(btw Chick-on seems to put a trance on people)

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bill-e-g
Wifey and I went from TH all the way to Emerick on day 1 via Elizabeth...

Interesting ... say, what is a good way to get from the Nelson Lake area south to Emeric Lake? I spy several possibilities on the topo, but you know how that can go when you get out onto the actual rocky stuff. How long of a hike was it from car to Emeric?

I'm thinking of doing a 4-day trip with my brother from Tuolumne Meadows south to Nelson Lake (ish) via Elizabeth Lake on the first day, then south to Emeric Lake the second day, then north back out to Tuolumne Meadows via Rafferty Creek the third day. 4th day = extra time just in case / lay-over day / whatever looks tasty en route. He tends to take his time hiking x/c because he's on crutches, which is kind of nice because I can enjoy the scenery more.

It's an attractive route because it seems pretty easy to get a Nelson Lake permit. Not sure how quotas apply on subsequent nights for x/c travel though. Prob do mid-July. Thanks for info!

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jishaq

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bill-e-g
Wifey and I went from TH all the way to Emerick on day 1 via Elizabeth...

Interesting ... say, what is a good way to get from the Nelson Lake area south to Emeric Lake? I spy several possibilities on the topo, but you know how that can go when you get out onto the actual rocky stuff. How long of a hike was it from car to Emeric?

I'm thinking of doing a 4-day trip with my brother from Tuolumne Meadows south to Nelson Lake (ish) via Elizabeth Lake on the first day, then south to Emeric Lake the second day, then north back out to Tuolumne Meadows via Rafferty Creek the third day. 4th day = extra time just in case / lay-over day / whatever looks tasty en route. He tends to take his time hiking x/c because he's on crutches, which is kind of nice because I can enjoy the scenery more.

It's an attractive route because it seems pretty easy to get a Nelson Lake permit. Not sure how quotas apply on subsequent nights for x/c travel though. Prob do mid-July. Thanks for info!

You may be interested in this thread:
http://www.yosemite.ca.us/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=771&p=7901
Read what mqk says in there for sure.

Most of the xcountry in the Cath Range is not really that difficult.
If you look at the pix of Bearproof in our trip here you can figure out our route:
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,56017
(I was "this" close to yelling Jeff to the 3 peeps we saw at Matthes on that trip...
turns out they would have known I was nuts though) (since one of them wasn't you)

It's approx. 10.5 miles from Elizabeth TH to Emeric Lake via Echo Creek.
From the first thread link you should be able to find my pix and map.
Or maybe just click here

As for the permit. If you start hiking at the Elizabeth TH you are good. You can camp just about anywhere
you want on day 1 with that permit provided you are "over the ridge" and out of all the no camping zones.
Subsequent days you can go wherever you like. With that permit I've gone all the way to Bernice via
Johnson Peak on day 1. Can't remember if they asked where I was camping on night 1 when I got
that permit though. Anyway, day 2+ you are not restricted.
On the "dome de dome dome" trip linked above... they asked how I was crossing the road... if it makes
sense then one permit will do.

Read those links and stuff.. and axe more if u like.

Have fun

o btw.. shout out to Basil's xcountry trek which went the way I was unsure of on one of those threads
(looking on map it looks simple) (didn't at the time):
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,44216

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chick-on
o btw.. shout out to Basil's xcountry trek which went the way I was unsure of on one of those threads
(looking on map it looks simple) (didn't at the time):
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,44216

I've been that way as well (Nelson to Merced), its pretty and very easy x-country, mostly open forest and meadow, at least one section of gently sloping granite along a cascade.

Great, thanks for the info, those threads are perfect fodder for my topo-gazing and research! That route looks both awesome and very do-able. The x/c looks pretty mellow, and having a big fat extra day can really help with the farting-around taking-our-time aspect, which is nice.

I dunno, I don't think I'd be too shocked if I saw someone yelling out random names in the backcountry. Maybe stop and offer them some trail mix and water. Heck, I should try barking random names that next time I see people and I'm too lazy to take my pack off to get to my food ... maybe someone will feed me!

You should just yell Jeff and see if you come running...

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There a shot of Echo Lake here:
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,24490,24490#msg-24490

If you want one w/o the snow let me know.

Definitely LNT if camping around Echo Lake please...

Haha, if you have one without snow/ice, that would be awesome. If not, that's okay.

Yes, I'm all for the LNT anywhere in Yosemite. In fact, I'm all for LNT hiking/camping/backpacking anywhere! Any sort of trace on trails or campsights makes me depressed and angry. It's sad how much wilderness has been desecrated by people not packing out. "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."

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waitingforgodot
Haha, if you have one without snow/ice, that would be awesome. If not, that's okay.

Yes, I'm all for the LNT anywhere in Yosemite. In fact, I'm all for LNT hiking/camping/backpacking anywhere! Any sort of trace on trails or campsights makes me depressed and angry. It's sad how much wilderness has been desecrated by people not packing out. "Take only pictures, leave only footprints."

I hope godot shows for you!

Here's from the saddle S of Matthes Crest looking east at Matthes Lake and the other
granite saddle you have to come up and over:


Here's from same saddle looking NE at Echo Lake:


Here's Echo Lake:


Have fun. Love your route. Probably take it come October.

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waitingforgodot
Would hiking in "walking shoes" (not even good tennis shoes) be okay, especially back country in that area?

Ask him if he's ok with being a nelipot if/when the shoes fall apart.

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waitingforgodot
Would hiking in "walking shoes" (not even good tennis shoes) be okay, especially back country in that area? I know that each backpacker needs to be responsible for him/herself, but there's a point where you can become a burden on others, and I don't want to run into that situation.

My one absolute, immutable requirement when I take people along on a backpacking trip is that they have a decent pair of hiking boots (I don't give a damn if they are bought, borrowed, or stolen)... otherwise, they don't go.

Whatever clothing they wish to wear is their own choice and they will have to live with it for a few days (although I do give them some suggestions/guidelines), but if your 'shoes' fail when you are in the backcountry (or if you twist an ankle or otherwise injure yourself because you don't have proper footware) then you have a real problem.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2010 06:00PM by szalkowski.

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waitingforgodot

(Rant with questions in next paragraph)
Sorry about the flood of questions... begin the head/only planner for the group makes me feel extremely responsible for the well-being and the enjoyment-level for my fellow backpackers. (Warning... here's a little rant... being the only planner is frustrating sometimes) They're relatively experienced backpackers: one is my usual backpacking partner, and the other has gone backpacking before, but never in the Sierra's (mainly desert/some forest in Southern California). My concern is that the latter is a cheap-a** and doesn't want to invest in any good hiking boots, thermals, fleece, down jackets, hiking pants (uses jeans instead) etc. Am I being overly-worried about him not having those, or is there an actual concern? I'm not so paranoid to need to get a GPS or whatnot (my hiking partner is that paranoid) considering that, where we're going, if we're lost, as long as we head North or West, we'll hit a road... we'll hit a trail regardless which direction we head. But am I right to be concerned about him not having the right hiking gear? I've always been more of a tool and so I invest in one good pair of fleece, one good pair of hiking boots, one down vest, one pair of hiking pants, etc, but maybe it's not always necessary for everyone? But jeans + non-fleece/down material = heavy/extra weight to me, and I'm not the strongest of all backpackers, and my body refuses to regulate temperature like a normal human being... but maybe it's okay for others? Would hiking in "walking shoes" (not even good tennis shoes) be okay, especially back country in that area? I know that each backpacker needs to be responsible for him/herself, but there's a point where you can become a burden on others, and I don't want to run into that situation.

Finally, does the weather get warmer or cooler by the mid/end of August? Should I expect higher highs or lower lows, or perhaps more milder temperatures? I know that the Sierra's can have a change of up to 35-45F in a day.

Thanks for anyone who read that rant... it's good to get things off your shoulders!

Well... let me tell you a few things about people and clothing from the perspective of someone who is part of a HUGE hiking group full of all skill levels and tax brackets.

We went on a backpack down the JMT from Tuolumne Meadows to Reds Meadow last year. One old salt who figured he could make do in early August in nothing but shorts - you read that right, no base layer, just shorts - took a chill and spent an afternoon in his tent bundled up in his bag. The next morning it began to SNOW.

Now, this wasn't sticking snow, or heavy. But it was that cold. I looked at Mr. DO NOT NEED PANTS and at the group in their perfectly serviceable layered synthetics and down jackets and said "here we are at Shadow Lake, let's go get a burger!" We left a day early and headed to Agnew, hopped on a bus, went into Mammoth, where we had reserved a campsite complete with access to warm showers. People were bailing off the trail in long lines, all wearing shorts. I'm not real keen on watching someone get hypothermic so was quite happy with that - a couple of us were not hot on the notion of hiking in snow of any amount anyway.

I do not go without 20F rated sleeping gear. I have never regretted that. Another trip we were in Yosemite valley backpacker campground at 50F one night, and the next night in LYV it dropped to 33F - one guy (different guy, again, swore he has backpacked and has REAL GOOD backpacking skillz) left his friggin' sleeping bag in the car. DUDE. He had to bum a mylar blanket off someone and sweat the night away sounding like someone shrink wrapped him.

There are umpty jillion gear lists and articles online - talk them into looking at a few. Jeans are not comfortable hiking pants! take it from someone who used to wear 'em all the time. I still do, just not on the trail. Here's a starting point: http://www.backpacker.com/backpacking101/

On shoes - I wear trail runners. I have worn tennies or walking shoes - NOT THE SAME. You need trail shoes or boots, they give your feet better protection and better traction. Some people swear by boots, all boots have ever done is bruise my ankles - I can wear the mid height hiking boots but nothing higher, and favor low cut trail runners, but my pack weight is not more than 30 lbs. If you are toting a heavier pack, something like the Asolo FSN (stiff shank, tougher sole) will protect your feet better than a lighter Merrell or Keen. I am naming these so you can check out and compare in a store, but more important than brand is the fit of the shoe - sometimes two models in the same brand fit me differently. You have to try on shoes and packs, get ones that fit right, this will make your hike sooooooooo much better if you can get these two items to fit you. Go cheap and get WalMart synthetic athletic pants/base layers, but get the right shoes/boots on the feet and a pack that fits.

A GPS only helps if you know how to use it. They can get an inexperienced user in trouble. And batteries don't work so well at freezing temps... they will take a hit each night it's that cold. Don't forget a map and compass.

Thanks for the input. I totally agree on the clothes, and I think as someone who isn't-quite-yet-but-wants-to-be-an-avid-backpacker-but-doesn't-have-the-time, the investment in good hiking good is really important, and it really is a once-in-a-long-time thing if you treat your clothes well. Unfortunately, my friend still disagrees and probably thinks I'm a tool. Oh sigh. Oh well. Anyway, at least I convinced him that hiking boots are important, at least.

Here's a map.

The red are GPS tracks from the last few years of ways we've gone.
The blue are ways to Mildred from Echo (you probably know more though... since
I've never even been to Mildred )



or click here and zoom in and save for your own enjoyment

http://picasaweb.google.com/yosemite.chick.on/Testies#5494484710235845506



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2010 05:53AM by bill-e-g.

Sorry for the late reply, but thanks!!

Thanks bill-e-g for another map. I print out all of them. I hope it's cool with you. They are a trmendous help and give great routs.
About the above posts about ill prepared people, thats why I solo hike most of the time. To many times delayed on trails fixing feet or nursing someone back to health because they were not in shape for the hike. Pisses me off more than anything when someone says they can do the hike and then gives up on the trail and you have to make changes to accomadate them and cut short the trip. Oh well sorry for the rant. I feel better now..

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jimbo
Thanks bill-e-g for another map. I print out all of them. I hope it's cool with you.

It's very cool.

If you find some sucker to buy any chick-on fotos though... he says he wants a cut.

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bill-e-g
If you find some sucker to buy any chick-on fotos though... he says he wants a cut.

Too late!

waitingforgodot,

If I were in your place I would not worry too much about Hiker #3's choice of clothing with one exception,--hiking boots. If he is unaccustomed to the rigors of Yosemite, especially off trail, hiking boots are almost a necessity. Light hikers are O.K. Basically, he needs the lateral support for the extra weight of a backpack. Bill-e-g and others sometimes do fine with nothing more than trail runners but they are more the exception than most. Thermals, fleece, down jacket, and hiking pants are nice but not necessary. At minimum I would recommend a very lightweight rain jacket, possibly with a liner for cool mornings and evenings at camp. Another handy item is one of those light weight wool pull-over undergarments for use in mornings, evenings, and perhaps while sleeping. As bill-e-g said, a 30 degree sleeping bag should be sufficient for where you are going in August. Nightime temps may get down to 35-45 degrees but sleeping in such a bag along with wool socks and maybe a wool pull-over is the most one might need.

A bigger concern might be the experience level of this 3rd hiker. I don't wish to steal bill-e-g's thunder but when he says a certain route should be easy to accomplish in one day, he's talking about himself. I think the average hiker would find off trail from Elizabeth to Matthes a full and energy consuming day. Yes, you can do it as long as your 3rd hiker is fully up to it. Make sure he is. Attempting it in normal shoes tells me he may not be up to it or even receptive to suggestions. I may be playing devil's advocate here but your trip seems to be relying on him to step up.

Echo Lake: The immediate area around Echo Lake is essentially grass, which is O.K. if you like mosquitos. There are some O.K. spots 1/2 mile south of Echo Lake in the trees along the creek that I think are more appealing. Bill-e-g also mentioned the Budd Lake route. If I'm not mistaken, one can ask specifically for a Budd Lake trailhead permit (you will not find it listed on the Yosemite web site). It actually utilizes the Cathedral trailhead but you depart from that trail after a few hundred feet. Again, you do have to go over the ridge the first day which in this case is Echo Peaks. Anyone who goes up there should bare to the left before descending the other side. The avenues through the peaks themselves get pretty steep.

I may now get a light scolding from bill-e-g, or perhaps he will sic the chicken on me.

Jim,
Neither of us would give you a hard time about anything... would we?
Unfortunately I think you wasted your time responding to waitingforgodot...
That person has not logged in since 5/23/2011.
(some guy named Jeff bumped this thread up with a question above)
Half Dome a nice day...
and I hope you can visit soon

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chickon,

Wish I could visit soon but it's not happening this year due to cash flow and elder care issues out of state . I am planning for August 2013. Hopefully, my Star Trek transporter will be perfected by then so I can forego airfare and car rental.

Sorry to hear that. Hope things work out so you can make it out in 2013.

Gonna try to get up Volunteer in Memory of Our Dear Friend Len over the 4th.

Regards,

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chick-on
Sorry to hear that. Hope things work out so you can make it out in 2013.

Gonna try to get up Volunteer in Memory of Our Dear Friend Len over the 4th.

Regards,

The Virginia Canyon/Matternorn CanyonVolunteer Peak/Rodgers Canyon area was probably the very last new territory Len ever had a chance to see in Yosemite. I don't believe he made any subsequent trips to Yosemite prior to his passing. He may have done something in Kings Canyon.

Jim

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tomdisco
Hopefully, my Star Trek transporter will be perfected by

Do you really want your molecules ripped apart like that?

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eeek

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tomdisco
Hopefully, my Star Trek transporter will be perfected by

Do you really want your molecules ripped apart like that?

No, but real life travel options kind of suck. I recall a science fiction story where instantaneous transport to another world was accomplished by making a copy of everything that was you and recreating a "new you" at the destination. The same thing was done on the return trip. In each case the "old you" was actually terminated. What fun! Still, it's Yosemite. Hmmm?

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chick-on

Unfortunately I think you wasted your time responding to waitingforgodot... That person has not logged in since 5/23/2011.
(some guy named Jeff bumped this thread up with a question above)

Yet Jim's advice is still a good and relevant read for anyone considering such a trip, or has such a friend. Useful information that is timeless.
.