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Re: Three bears hit in the last week

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avatar Three bears hit in the last week
June 23, 2011 12:04PM
The bears were hit near Chinquapin, at Crane Flat, and near El Capitan.
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 23, 2011 12:24PM
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 23, 2011 02:19PM
Sad news. People need to slow down when driving in the valley, more so in the Morning/Evening hours. Also, I know it's easy to be distracted while driving in Yosemite but you still need to pay attention!!!
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 23, 2011 03:36PM
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ERICG
Sad news. People need to slow down when driving in the valley, more so in the Morning/Evening hours. Also, I know it's easy to be distracted while driving in Yosemite but you still need to pay attention!!!

I agree that people should slow down when driving in the Valley, but again, I don't know if the drivers (only one bear was hit in the Valley) were driving faster than the speed limit.

I seen a lot of near misses on the Valley roads (vehicles almost hitting pedestrians, cyclists, or animals) not because the driver of the vehicle was driving too fast, but because the driver wasn't paying attention to the road itself.

I really don't understand why the Park Service thinks bears get hit because people are speeding. I really think it's more because the drivers are distracted and are not focused on driving, but instead are sightseeing.
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 23, 2011 03:52PM
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plawrence
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ERICG
Sad news. People need to slow down when driving in the valley, more so in the Morning/Evening hours. Also, I know it's easy to be distracted while driving in Yosemite but you still need to pay attention!!!

I agree that people should slow down when driving in the Valley, but again, I don't know if the drivers (only one bear was hit in the Valley) were driving faster than the speed limit.

I seen a lot of near misses on the Valley roads (vehicles almost hitting pedestrians, cyclists, or animals) not because the driver of the vehicle was driving too fast, but because the driver wasn't paying attention to the road itself.

I really don't understand why the Park Service thinks bears get hit because people are speeding. I really think it's more because the drivers are distracted and are not focused on driving, but instead are sightseeing.
You may be right, but perhaps the speeding is what kills the bear rather than stun it.
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 23, 2011 04:01PM
My impression is that bears aren't necessarily lumbering hulks moving across the road. While at Sequoia NP a few years ago, a cub dashed quickly across the road in front of us as we drove back to camp. We had plenty of time to slow down, park by the road and watch him from a distance join his mother. But the incident did make me think that I could have been in a collision had the cub jumped out when our car was much closer - even at the speed limit.

I don't speed simply because I don't like speeding (Can't I just enjoy the drive and soak-in the day?) but I find myself having to pull into the turn-outs a lot.
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 23, 2011 05:26PM
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plawrence
I agree that people should slow down when driving in the Valley, but again, I don't know if the drivers (only one bear was hit in the Valley) were driving faster than the speed limit.

I hit a bear in SEKI a few years ago. At the time I was doing about 30 mph in a 35 zone near the rear of a line of cars. The bear tried to run between the cars. Not sure how much I slowed down when we hit but the bear ran off. It was a sickening thud that I never want to hear again.
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 23, 2011 05:29PM
Speed limit around Crane Flat is 25. Chinquapin I believe is the same.
Maybe the bear hit around Crane was looking for a parking spot too but all
the cones and barriers got in the way.

On a less serious note I think the park should make it more obvious of what the
bear signs mean. Then maybe people will not speed in the park.



Picasa Pictures
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 23, 2011 05:44PM
Speed can make a big difference in survivability. Slowing from 35 to 25 makes for a huge difference in humans. Probably does too for bears. eye popping smiley
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 23, 2011 05:51PM
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eeek
I hit a bear in SEKI a few years ago. At the time I was doing about 30 mph in a 35 zone near the rear of a line of cars. The bear tried to run between the cars. Not sure how much I slowed down when we hit but the bear ran off. It was a sickening thud that I never want to hear again.

And yet if this had happened at Yosemite and the bear died (at no fault to you -- since the bear darted out right in front of your vehicle), the Park Service would have put one of those speed kills bear signs at the spot -- even though you were driving slower than the speed limit.

And I wonder if what happened to you is common -- that a bear becomes impatient waiting for a line of cars to pass and tries to sprint across between the cars? Does anyone know? Is there a place online where I could research this? Anyplace online where these bear collision incident reports are filed?
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 18, 2011 02:37PM
I almost hit a bear in the same way. Following a car at a normal distance and we were driving at the speed limit and the bear just darted out from the other side of the road and ran right between the two cars. He has on the otherside of the road before I could react. This was between Wawona Tunnel and Chinquapin.

I don't think stats on bear hits/deaths are anywhere online but I would think they would be unreliable if they were. I assume that a lot aren't reported, just a dead bear is found or it runs into the woods, dies later and is never found. Otherwise if the person who hit the bear is reporting it, if they did do something illegal or improper, I'm guessing they would be hesitant to report that and change or make up the story.

The slower you go the less likely you are to kill something as you have more time to react and/or the impact is less forceful. The 'Kill Speed' for humans is:
If someone is hit by a car at 40 mph they are 90% likely to be killed.
If someone is hit by a car at 30 mph they are 50% likely to be killed.
If someone is hit by a car at 20 mph they are 10% likely to be killed.
I assume it would be somewhat similar for bears. I doubt everyone is going to drive 20 mph or less (unless you are following a RV) so there unfortunately are going to be bears hit & killed in the park. Of course not endorsing speeding or anything like that, but just a sad fact.

BTW, I think the 25 mph speed limit at Crane Flat is more so because of the owls. The nearby meadows are good habitat for them and apparently they like to sit in the middle of the road at times. That's why the lower speed limit is over a larger area, instead of at a small area, like at Chinquapin, where presumably it is because of the intersection and turn.
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 18, 2011 01:43PM
Quote
ERICG
Sad news. People need to slow down when driving in the valley, more so in the Morning/Evening hours. Also, I know it's easy to be distracted while driving in Yosemite but you still need to pay attention!!!

Yes, the speed limits are set up with the bears in mind. At their peak, they can only run 40-45 mph & can't react quickly enough to avoid cars going above the speed limits.
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 23, 2011 03:14PM
Were they killed?
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 23, 2011 04:34PM
I don't think they were killed - The following is a FaceBook post by YNP

Yosemite National Park - All three of the bears ran off. They were hit near Chinquapin, Crane Flat, and in Yosemite Valley.
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 26, 2011 10:50AM
Thank God they apparently were not killed, this is great news.

Last year as I pulling out of the Sunrise trailhead parking lot, a yearling ran right out in front of my car. I was only driving about 10 MPH because I was just leaving, but I did graze the little fellow. My heart was in my throat and I felt sick to my stomach. Luckily, he seemed stunned and scampered to the side of the road. I waited for a moment and then he ran off into the trees. He/she wasn't limping and seemed OK.

Last year I hit a deer in June Lake, driving just 20 MPH in a 35 MPH zone. I was physically sick, even though I believe the deer survived.
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 26, 2011 08:09PM
Aside from bears, there were a lot of deer crossing the Tioga Road in front of me while I was driving to Tuolumne Meadows Saturday AM to pick up a wilderness permit. One fawn just darted from the vegetation right in front of me, I had to brake hard.

I agree there's too many orange cones in the Crane Flat area, they seem to have overreacted to the 'bear jams' from last year. Wasn't aware that the orange cone was one of the values meant to be protected by the park.
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 26, 2011 09:44PM
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ttilley
I agree there's too many orange cones in the Crane Flat area, they seem to have overreacted to the 'bear jams' from last year.
I disagree. Glacier Pt. road (which the parking lot there was another story!):


Someone asks me "are you afraid when you see a bear?"
My answer "are you afraid when you see a deer?"



Picasa Pictures
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 26, 2011 09:51PM
OK, that's worse than what I saw of the Crane Flat 'bear jam' last year. On the other hand, at least the Crane Flat Photographers were, mostly, pulling into the space now occupied by orange cones. These people have no such space.
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 26, 2011 09:55PM
Somebody should tell them just to camp in one of the Pines campgrounds if they really want to see a bear.
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 26, 2011 10:03PM
I honestly couldn't believe the number of people walking IN the road ALL OVER the place.
I don't get it. When I walk on a road I am constantly looking for traffic and getting my
butt WAY off the road when I see any. Even a small child tried to jump in front of my car
at the Crane Flat gas station. Almost gave me more of a heart attack as the price of the gas.



Picasa Pictures
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 19, 2011 06:36AM
You paid for gas at Crane Flat? I'm willing to bite the bullet and pay the "screw you surcharge, you're in yosemite" price for a six pack there, but gas is a whole other story. I fill up coming into Groveland and that's good for the trip. The closer you get to the Park, the more expensive gas & booze gets.
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 19, 2011 10:08AM
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oakroscoe

You paid for gas at Crane Flat? I'm willing to bite the bullet and pay the "screw you surcharge, you're in yosemite" price for a six pack there, but gas is a whole other story. I fill up coming into Groveland and that's good for the trip. The closer you get to the Park, the more expensive gas & booze gets.

Gasoline in Groveland is quite expensive too. If I'm going to be in Yosemite only for a weekend, I can usually manage by filling up at the Valero in Oakdale or at the Costco in Merced. If I'm visiting Yosemite for a week and doing a lot of day hikes around Yosemite, then I'll get low in fuel and will probably end up having to purchase gas at El Portal, Crane Flat, Tuolumne Meadows or Wawona.


avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 19, 2011 11:43AM
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plawrence
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oakroscoe

You paid for gas at Crane Flat? I'm willing to bite the bullet and pay the "screw you surcharge, you're in yosemite" price for a six pack there, but gas is a whole other story. I fill up coming into Groveland and that's good for the trip. The closer you get to the Park, the more expensive gas & booze gets.

Gasoline in Groveland is quite expensive too. If I'm going to be in Yosemite only for a weekend, I can usually manage by filling up at the Valero in Oakdale or at the Costco in Merced. If I'm visiting Yosemite for a week and doing a lot of day hikes around Yosemite, then I'll get low in fuel and will probably end up having to purchase gas at El Portal, Crane Flat, Tuolumne Meadows or Wawona.




It never ceases to elude me why people don't carry along and fill a 5 gallon gas can at their last fuel stop before entering the park.
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 19, 2011 12:27PM
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szalkowski
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plawrence
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oakroscoe

You paid for gas at Crane Flat? I'm willing to bite the bullet and pay the "screw you surcharge, you're in yosemite" price for a six pack there, but gas is a whole other story. I fill up coming into Groveland and that's good for the trip. The closer you get to the Park, the more expensive gas & booze gets.

Gasoline in Groveland is quite expensive too. If I'm going to be in Yosemite only for a weekend, I can usually manage by filling up at the Valero in Oakdale or at the Costco in Merced. If I'm visiting Yosemite for a week and doing a lot of day hikes around Yosemite, then I'll get low in fuel and will probably end up having to purchase gas at El Portal, Crane Flat, Tuolumne Meadows or Wawona.

It never ceases to elude me why people don't carry along and fill a 5 gallon gas can at their last fuel stop before entering the park.

Because it's flammable and dangerous, and takes up precious trunk space.
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 19, 2011 12:43PM
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plawrence
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szalkowski
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plawrence
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oakroscoe

You paid for gas at Crane Flat? I'm willing to bite the bullet and pay the "screw you surcharge, you're in yosemite" price for a six pack there, but gas is a whole other story. I fill up coming into Groveland and that's good for the trip. The closer you get to the Park, the more expensive gas & booze gets.

Gasoline in Groveland is quite expensive too. If I'm going to be in Yosemite only for a weekend, I can usually manage by filling up at the Valero in Oakdale or at the Costco in Merced. If I'm visiting Yosemite for a week and doing a lot of day hikes around Yosemite, then I'll get low in fuel and will probably end up having to purchase gas at El Portal, Crane Flat, Tuolumne Meadows or Wawona.

It never ceases to elude me why people don't carry along and fill a 5 gallon gas can at their last fuel stop before entering the park.

Because it's flammable and dangerous, and takes up precious trunk space.


Rubbish.
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 19, 2011 04:53PM
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szalkowski
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plawrence
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szalkowski
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plawrence
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oakroscoe

You paid for gas at Crane Flat? I'm willing to bite the bullet and pay the "screw you surcharge, you're in yosemite" price for a six pack there, but gas is a whole other story. I fill up coming into Groveland and that's good for the trip. The closer you get to the Park, the more expensive gas & booze gets.

Gasoline in Groveland is quite expensive too. If I'm going to be in Yosemite only for a weekend, I can usually manage by filling up at the Valero in Oakdale or at the Costco in Merced. If I'm visiting Yosemite for a week and doing a lot of day hikes around Yosemite, then I'll get low in fuel and will probably end up having to purchase gas at El Portal, Crane Flat, Tuolumne Meadows or Wawona.

It never ceases to elude me why people don't carry along and fill a 5 gallon gas can at their last fuel stop before entering the park.


Because it's flammable and dangerous, and takes up precious trunk space.


Rubbish.


So you think that gasoline isn't flammable nor dangerous? Then why all those warnings on modern gasoline containers, in which the first word is almost always DANGER in large bold type?

And a 5-gallon gas can will take up a bit of space in the trunk of one's car, unless of course you prefer storing it in the vehicle's passenger compartment.

(And besides, how much money would one actually save by NOT buying five gallons of gas at Crane Flat versus the purchase of a five-gallon gas can?)


avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 19, 2011 06:05PM
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plawrence
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szalkowski
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plawrence
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szalkowski
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plawrence
Quote
oakroscoe

You paid for gas at Crane Flat? I'm willing to bite the bullet and pay the "screw you surcharge, you're in yosemite" price for a six pack there, but gas is a whole other story. I fill up coming into Groveland and that's good for the trip. The closer you get to the Park, the more expensive gas & booze gets.

Gasoline in Groveland is quite expensive too. If I'm going to be in Yosemite only for a weekend, I can usually manage by filling up at the Valero in Oakdale or at the Costco in Merced. If I'm visiting Yosemite for a week and doing a lot of day hikes around Yosemite, then I'll get low in fuel and will probably end up having to purchase gas at El Portal, Crane Flat, Tuolumne Meadows or Wawona.

It never ceases to elude me why people don't carry along and fill a 5 gallon gas can at their last fuel stop before entering the park.


Because it's flammable and dangerous, and takes up precious trunk space.


Rubbish.


So you think that gasoline isn't flammable nor dangerous? Then why all those warnings on modern gasoline containers, in which the first word is almost always DANGER in large bold type?

And a 5-gallon gas can will take up a bit of space in the trunk of one's car, unless of course you prefer storing it in the vehicle's passenger compartment.

(And besides, how much money would one actually save by NOT buying five gallons of gas at Crane Flat versus the purchase of a five-gallon gas can?)




Anything is dangerous in the hands of someone who isn't competent.
My Saturn sedan routinely carries three people on trips and all the backpacking equipment fits in the trunk along with a 5 gal. gas can.
It also averages 37+ mpg, so I'm not the one whining about how much gas costs in the park.

Added note: 5 gal. = 2/3 cu.ft.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2011 06:27PM by szalkowski.
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 24, 2011 02:20PM
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szalkowski
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plawrence
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szalkowski
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plawrence
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szalkowski
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plawrence
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oakroscoe

You paid for gas at Crane Flat? I'm willing to bite the bullet and pay the "screw you surcharge, you're in yosemite" price for a six pack there, but gas is a whole other story. I fill up coming into Groveland and that's good for the trip. The closer you get to the Park, the more expensive gas & booze gets.

Gasoline in Groveland is quite expensive too. If I'm going to be in Yosemite only for a weekend, I can usually manage by filling up at the Valero in Oakdale or at the Costco in Merced. If I'm visiting Yosemite for a week and doing a lot of day hikes around Yosemite, then I'll get low in fuel and will probably end up having to purchase gas at El Portal, Crane Flat, Tuolumne Meadows or Wawona.

It never ceases to elude me why people don't carry along and fill a 5 gallon gas can at their last fuel stop before entering the park.


Because it's flammable and dangerous, and takes up precious trunk space.


Rubbish.


So you think that gasoline isn't flammable nor dangerous? Then why all those warnings on modern gasoline containers, in which the first word is almost always DANGER in large bold type?

And a 5-gallon gas can will take up a bit of space in the trunk of one's car, unless of course you prefer storing it in the vehicle's passenger compartment.

(And besides, how much money would one actually save by NOT buying five gallons of gas at Crane Flat versus the purchase of a five-gallon gas can?)




Anything is dangerous in the hands of someone who isn't competent.
My Saturn sedan routinely carries three people on trips and all the backpacking equipment fits in the trunk along with a 5 gal. gas can.
It also averages 37+ mpg, so I'm not the one whining about how much gas costs in the park.

Added note: 5 gal. = 2/3 cu.ft.

Which Saturn sedan do you have? Mine gets good gas mileage, but not THAT good.
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 24, 2011 02:42PM
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SierraGold
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szalkowski

Anything is dangerous in the hands of someone who isn't competent.
My Saturn sedan routinely carries three people on trips and all the backpacking equipment fits in the trunk along with a 5 gal. gas can.
It also averages 37+ mpg, so I'm not the one whining about how much gas costs in the park.

Added note: 5 gal. = 2/3 cu.ft.

Which Saturn sedan do you have? Mine gets good gas mileage, but not THAT good.


1998 SL2. Manual transmission.
(With two other people plus backpacking equipment, it undoubtedly gets a couple mpg less. However, I get 37-38 mpg on standard freeway/highway driving.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2011 02:47PM by szalkowski.
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 24, 2011 06:52PM
My 2000 Eclipse gets between 35-37 on the freeway. 4 cylinder with a manual transmission.
'
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 19, 2011 06:15PM
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oakroscoe
You paid for gas at Crane Flat? I'm willing to bite the bullet and pay the "screw you surcharge, you're in yosemite" price for a six pack there, but gas is a whole other story. I fill up coming into Groveland and that's good for the trip. The closer you get to the Park, the more expensive gas & booze gets.

My post was from June 26th. For that trip I did an overnight at May Lake after climbing Hoffmann.
Then drove to Glacier Pt. to meet The Old Dude. After waiting patiently for 4 hours decided to get ahold of him.
Car brokey, not coming... so I drove my butt back down and back up Tioga. Many more miles than expected.
Was forced to put in a few gallons ... enough to get me back to Oakdale. Normally only fill up in Oakdale.



Picasa Pictures
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 19, 2011 10:06PM
Quote
oakroscoe
You paid for gas at Crane Flat? I'm willing to bite the bullet and pay the "screw you surcharge, you're in yosemite" price for a six pack there, but gas is a whole other story. I fill up coming into Groveland and that's good for the trip. The closer you get to the Park, the more expensive gas & booze gets.

Within the park, at least it's somewhat justifiable. The Valero in Escalon is the rip-off, preying on those w/o knowledge that Oakdale is merely a few minutes away.
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 28, 2011 01:02PM
The "outlanders" were definitely driving too fast on the Tioga last Friday. Why does a person want to "scream" through that scenery at 55 mph?
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
June 28, 2011 06:07PM
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btnicholas
The "outlanders" were definitely driving too fast on the Tioga last Friday. Why does a person want to "scream" through that scenery at 55 mph?

To get to the other side?
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 19, 2011 05:55PM
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plawrence
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btnicholas
The "outlanders" were definitely driving too fast on the Tioga last Friday. Why does a person want to "scream" through that scenery at 55 mph?

To get to the other side?

To keep up with the deputy in the truck in front of you, on the way to a SAR callout.
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 19, 2011 06:39AM
Well in my case, its usually because I worked during the day and want to get to the trailhead and get an hour or two in before I have to turn my headlamp on to follow the trail. And its a little annoying when the speed limit is 45 and some idiot in front of you is doing 25...
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 19, 2011 01:02PM
How much money would you really be saving?
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 19, 2011 09:33PM
I always stop in Oakdale ( the last ARCO on the way ) on the way into Yosemite and fill up. That usually lasts the rest of the trip and a couple of days commuting to work the next week after the trip.
Having an 18G tank helps.
But then I usually drive into the valley, park, and don't use the car for the rest of the trip until I'm leaving.

There's been a few times I had to get gas at Crane Flat or Tuolumne. ( is gas more in Lee Vining than Tuolumne? why? )

There was one trip I stopped and got some gas at Crane Flat in the middle of a blizzard in the middle of the night. Wanted to make sure I was full. Conditions were so bad I wanted to be ready for anything. Pulled back on 120 and got stopped for a while by a ranger. A couple of buses were trying to come up the grade from the Hazel Green pullout and couldn't make it. Stayed at the road block with the motor and heater running to keep warm until the ranger let me pass. On the way out I passed the buses on the grade. Looked like they couldn't get enough traction and had slipped sideways downslope into the elbow of the curve so I had to pass them on the wrong-way side of the road!

Winter driving can be fun! smiling smiley

In Summary:
Fill up in the flatlands or where ever the price is still reasonable!
Be ready to pay thru the nose if you have to fill up in or near the park.
Plan ahead how much gas you're going to use and where you'll fill up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2011 09:34PM by qumqats.
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 20, 2011 09:57AM
Ha...from bears to gas...

Those bears just dash out in front of your vehicle to cross the road. I was taking video where southside drive just turned one way and a black bear (I say "black" because I have really seen very few "black" black bears) dashed across in front of us. Not close enough to hit him...good for him as we were pulling the trailer.

As for purchasing gas at Crane Flat...we always do when pulling the 5th wheel. Don't know where we might drive while we spend a week in the valley...sometimes nowhere...sometimes to Glacier Point and more,
like when it rained the entire week in '09. Our last two choices for gas are Tuolumne (if open) and Lee Vining, usually more pricey than Crane Flat.

No bear sightings in the valley (June) this year...9 nights camping, in the "pines" campgrounds...just one from Tioga Road, from a distance in the meadow. Mini bear jam.
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 21, 2011 06:24PM
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hikerchick395
(I say "black" because I have really seen very few "black" black bears) from a distance in the meadow. Mini bear

I ran into a sow while I was on my way to Laurel Lake. She had two black black bear cubs with her. The picture will be posted soon.
Reelee black!



Old Dude



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2011 06:25PM by mrcondron.
avatar Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 21, 2011 11:24AM
A year ago this October when my friend and I were leaving the park on Hwy 120 between Crane Flat and the park exit when a bear at full gallop came up over the edge of the road and ran right in front of us. We were not speeding. My friend hit the brakes and had to swerve into the oncoming lane to miss the bear. Fortunately there was no oncoming traffic. Brakes only would have resulted in hitting the bear. I suspect that there is no practical way to reduce bear hits to zero. Bears may be very smart when it comes to finding food, but they seem to be stupid when it comes to avoiding cars.
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 28, 2011 07:55AM
Bear thread or gas?

The little country store in Midpines has gas and everytime I have seen the price it is 30 to 40 cents cheaper than in El Portal.
Re: Three bears hit in the last week
September 28, 2011 05:06PM
It has been many years since we have gone to the park that way and I am glad to hear that the store/gas station in Midpines is still there. We were low on gas and felt that we could not make it to Wawona so we decided to get gas in El Portal. Unfortunately, the gas station had not gotten it's delivery and was closed. There we were with a small baby and wondering what to do. A police officer stopped to see what was wrong and offered to follow us to Midpines just in case we ran out of gas. It was a little nerve racking because not only were we low on gas, we did not know what the speed limit was most of the time. We made it safely to the gas station and went inside to find a old fashion store that has not change much in many decades. It is a gem.
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