Re: Craigslist and scalping

From what I can tell, most of the scalping of Yosemite campsites and Half Dome permits is currently being facilitated by Craigslist. Ebay seems to have cracked down.

What other avenues are the scalpers using?

If the situation were addressed on Craigslist, to what extent would that deter the scalpers?

(I figure this year is a write-off, but a message needs to be sent before they start buying blocks of tickets for next year.)

How could Craigslist best address this problem? Could we help them, somehow?

Serious questions - I just dropped a line to craig@craigslist asking "Is there anything that we could do about this? "

I received the reply "Joe, I don't know, sharing with the team now!"

I directed them to the efforts of this forum, so please be polite. Perhaps we can work together. Thanks in advance.

Craigslist is the MAIN vehicle for selling campsites and half dome permits.

They may attempt to send mass emails on Yosemite forums, but they understand that the majority of buyers go on craigslist to buy these campsites/permits.


Craigslist can blacklist the keywords "half dome" "halfdome" "yosemite" in the FOR SALE and ITEMS WANTED section.

That would in my mind eliminate the problem instantaneously.

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sactown23
Craigslist is the MAIN vehicle for selling campsites and half dome permits..

Thanks, and that's what I figured. It might be hard to provide concrete metrics, but if other people report the same, at least we can provide consensus.

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sactown23
Craigslist can blacklist the keywords "half dome" "halfdome" "yosemite" in the FOR SALE and ITEMS WANTED section.

Yeah, but REI sells a tent called the Half Dome and their are lots of items branded Yosemite. So that might be a little Draconian. Just playing devils advocate - while that would work for us, we need a solution that also works for them.

possibly eliminate the combination of "yosemite" + "campsite" "camp" "reservation" and "half dome" + "permit" "pass"

that way, you can post only "yosemite" and only "half dome", but not the combination of any of the above keywords

That sounds more like a possibility.

Just thinking through this: a scalper's ad can be prohibited either at the moment of posting or taken down via the flagging process. I don't know more than you regarding either process.

You're addressing the first scenario, perhaps we could also address the second. If I were to post an ad selling Nazi memorabilia, child pornography or sex, I would imagine it would be immediately deleted by a Craigslist admin, rather than a mystery number of user-generated flags. (Don't worry, I'm not going to test this.)

Perhaps we could petition for you, eeek, or others engaged in these janitorial duties to be promoted to admin status?

Craigslist just doesn't care. They only take action on the things you mention because they are forced into it. Other than that they are laissez-faire all the way.

I wouldn't argue with that. So should I just give up?

If I can get a few useful suggestions here - or at least a consensus that Craigslist is part of the problem - I'll send this thread to Craig's attention tomorrow, just to see what may happen. I figure it's worth an attempt. If nothing happens, at least I'll be able to say I gave it an honest shot.

While I'd like to propose some solutions, I'm not motivated by self-interest. I rarely visit the Valley in the summer and I have no concern for Half Dome permits; I'd get a Wilderness Permit or climb a sharper route to the top.

But I don't feel like playing whack-a-mole next season. We need to find a deterrent before the scalpers purchase blocks of campsite reservations and Half Dome permits for next year. This year is toast.

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I wouldn't argue with that. So should I just give up?

Personally, I think that's what they're counting on. If everyone just throws in the towel, that leaves the door wide open for them.

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If I can get a few useful suggestions here - or at least a consensus that Craigslist is part of the problem - I'll send this thread to Craig's attention tomorrow, just to see what may happen. I figure it's worth an attempt. If nothing happens, at least I'll be able to say I gave it an honest shot.

As long as people are allowed to advertise the campsites and permits there, Craigslist is a BIG part of the problem. Thank goodness eBay put a stop to it.

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While I'd like to propose some solutions, I'm not motivated by self-interest. I rarely visit the Valley in the summer and I have no concern for Half Dome permits; I'd get a Wilderness Permit or climb a sharper route to the top.

Nor am I. I live so far away, and right now my obligations don't allow me to go anywhere. When the opportunity arises, I don't care what time of the year it is, I'm there. As for Half Dome... I'm happy just to stand on the Valley floor and look up at it. I'll continue to live vicariously through the photos of those who have done it, i.e., my daughter.

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But I don't feel like playing whack-a-mole next season. We need to find a deterrent before the scalpers purchase blocks of campsite reservations and Half Dome permits for next year. This year is toast.

I don't know anything about Craig's List except that when I tried to look up the ads y'all have listed here, they've already been removed. I haven't been able to find them on my own because I'm not familiar with the site. Campsites being scalped has been an ongoing problem as far back as 2002 (during Dave Mihalic's tenure), from what I could find in the archives on another site. I've personally filed complaints with Mike Tollefson as far back as 2006, when I was finding them being listed on eBay.

This year is obviously toast, but eeek is right in a way. They were pretty much forced to remove the "erotic" and "adult" section on its site, which was used as a vehicle for online prostitution.

Unless, they have a special appreciation for National parks, I doubt they will do anything.


However, like you said, it's worth a try. As for your earlier post, I don't want any admin privileges on craigslist, as that is not my job....to remove pathetic scalpers from posting ads. Craigslist should have plenty of brilliant minds to work on an ingenious solution to prevent scalpers from selling half dome permits and campsite reservations.

I'm open for a discussion with the guys at craigslist if that is even possible.

"Banning" the words won't work. Just post h@lf D@ome Y@semite and other variations.

I think the real answer is to make then non-transferable, check for IDs and have some first come, first served available (like the wilderness permits).

Craigslist could probably do more, but I don't know their capabilities at all to be able to comment on what.

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Hitech
"Banning" the words won't work. Just post h@lf D@ome Y@semite and other variations.

I think the real answer is to make then non-transferable, check for IDs and have some first come, first served available (like the wilderness permits).

Craigslist could probably do more, but I don't know their capabilities at all to be able to comment on what.

sure the scalpers can post "h@alf d@ome", but then when people search for "half dome", that listing wont come up.

I mean how many potential buyers are searching for h@alf d@aome?


As for making them non-transferable and only having them available for pickup, that is something that needs to be addressed to Yosemite. But, if Yosemite doesn't get off and create a solution like they did for the campsites, then the scalpers will be back at it on craigslist, which is where the problem lies at the moment.

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sactown23
if Yosemite doesn't get off and create a solution like they did for the campsites, then the scalpers will be back at it on craigslist, which is where the problem lies at the moment.

Yup, agree completely. Just pointing out potential problems.

And hey, flagging Cragslist ads give me something to do with my morning coffee.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2011 11:01AM by Hitech.

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Hitech
"Banning" the words won't work. Just post h@lf D@ome Y@semite and other variations.

Scalpers have tried playing that game but didn't stick with it long. Fooling the filters (and the flaggers) is possible but it also makes searches by buyers useless.

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eeek

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Hitech
"Banning" the words won't work. Just post h@lf D@ome Y@semite and other variations.

Scalpers have tried playing that game but didn't stick with it long. Fooling the filters (and the flaggers) is possible but it also makes searches by buyers useless.

It might be briefly visible on the category pages, but will drop off quickly - especially in the high traffic Craigslist regions. You're right that searches are where most people would find a specific listing.

It's been mentioned that "Half Dome" has been used as a product name as well as "Yosemite". I remember one of the early flags was for a yard sale at some subdivision in Fresno with "Yosemite" in its name. It could also be a problem if you're talking about legitimate events or sales where Yosemite is a street or place name. Some people might be looking for a shared ride to Yosemite. How many schools contain the name Yosemite? A keyword tool would be rather blunt.

This is a tad bit O/T, but do any of you remember when the campsites were FCFS?

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SierraGold
This is a tad bit O/T, but do any of you remember when the campsites were FCFS?

Yep.

THOSE were the days. Before long lines at the entrance(s), before the riot, before the days when kids would rather play video games, before boardwalks and fences, before reservations and permits, before Tioga Road became a super highway down Lee Vining Canyon. THOSE were the days *sigh*

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QITNL
Serious questions - I just dropped a line to craig@craigslist asking "Is there anything that we could do about this? "

I received the reply "Joe, I don't know, sharing with the team now!"

I directed them to the efforts of this forum, so please be polite. Perhaps we can work together. Thanks in advance.

Did you ever hear anything more?

Nope. We traded a few emails, but without any community support, I dropped it. I didn't want to come across as some kind of lone wingnut.

There are various points in the chain where the scalping could be stopped. The first would be at the source - the 15th of the month. Unfortunately recreation.gov seems unable to stop the bots.

The next point would be the advertising and distribution. Ebay was a source. They blocked it. It seems Craigslist now accounts for most of it.

Whack-a-mole seems like doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.

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QITNL
Nope. We traded a few emails, but without any community support, I dropped it. I didn't want to come across as some kind of lone wingnut.

There are various points in the chain where the scalping could be stopped. The first would be at the source - the 15th of the month. Unfortunately recreation.gov seems unable to stop the bots.

The next point would be the advertising and distribution. Ebay was a source. They blocked it. It seems Craigslist now accounts for most of it.

Whack-a-mole seems like doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results.

They could do away with online reservations, make it phone only. Levels the playing field.

I think we are getting some results. He is having to delete postings pretty much as soon as they are posted and has resorted to a lame method of listing a email address as a title. I think most people wouldn't have a clue as to what that means especially when they click the link and get a message says "deleted by author."

It could be stopped if Recreation.gov actually did their job and if the NPS started turning back everyone who bought off Craig's List. A the very least the Rangers ought to send them over to the Reservation Hut and make them wait in line for a possible campsite. When the buyers start complaining to PayPal about being scamed and demanding their money back, PayPal could shut it down.

As for now Whack-A-Mole is it.

I asked the volunteers at the entrance to Upper Pines recenty what is being done about enforcement on thier end. I got a real wishy washy answer (Oh yeah, we are aware of it). I don't blame them, they have no dog in the fight and are just volunteers. I saw very little enforcement of any kind at the campgrounds this year. I never saw anyone being turned away. This problem is not going away because there is no teeth to the policy and and no incentive for the 3rd party vendors who run this reservation system to change the setup to be more secure. As long as the campgorunds are full and they are getting their money, NPS and RA are happy. Just my .02

I think this forum has really impacted the primary hacker, Tran. I've kept track of his "inventory" and the turnover has been pretty static. I think he's a scammer that relays on a free ride from Craigslist. If he is denied his "marketplace" on Craigslist, he will lose money, and he will fail. I believe he IS failing. The forum has "whacked" him in such numbers and consistency that he must take his laptop to the toilet to keep up with reposting. What we are preforming here is a proactive boycott and I think it's working.
I also agree with Boomtown that policies are needed with "teeth' and reservation vendors need to get off their corporate butts.
Bureaucratic policy is monolithic by definition and it often takes a "force of nature" to alter it. This forum IS a force of nature. The previous string on scalpers had over 9000 views!
I suspect if the NPS and the vendor Reserve America began to receive hundreds (thousands would be sweet) of informed complaints about scalping, cc'd to local congressman/representatives, well,
imagine if you were on the other end of that.
I'm motivated by the concept that the Valley is a special place and the NPS, with all it's faults, still holds to a 20.00 campsite so "anyone" can see it. The rest is problematic.
Tran is the ultimate test case and he has been gracious enough to clearly define the systems failures. Now we just need to get the relative agencies to act upon his hard work.
Th NPS, Active/Reserve America, the Department of the Interior, Congress, IRS, and the Justice Department should be (and in some cases are) addressing this "system" failure.
But it ain't a priority.
I think it should be, but that's just me.
I've written my letters, sent my emails, flagged the punk, and posted warnings and I plan to continue.
Might go camping in between, if I could just get a campsite ---



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2012 06:22AM by Blue Moon.

Keep up the good work. This tactic is so effective, all the postings are deleted before I get a chance to flag them.

I am imagining all of his unsold inventory going to needy fist come-first served campers in the Valley.

---

"It is all very beautiful and magical here - a quality which cannot be described. You have to live it and breath it., let the sun bake it into you" - Ansel Adams

Edit, remove.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2012 07:33AM by mtn man.

Simply including one of the "Type these characters" type fields and not immediately putting the canceled site back into inventory would eliminate enough of the problem that it wouldn't be a problem. Obviously those in charge don't want to fix the problem. They can say all they want but actions speak louder than words...

It always amazes me the assumptions people make when they have no idea what's going on.

Could you please expand on that Dave? I am not being sarcastic. I really would like to understand more about what's happening. Right now I am searching Craigslist, posting links, and flagging. I have sent emails to Craigslist, PayPal, NPS, and Recreation.gov. The only response I have gotten has been from Craigslist saying thanks for your input. I am willing to do more.

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Finally Time
Could you please expand on that Dave?

I'll expand on this as much as I am free to do so. You are disrespecting people that work hard and really do care about what is going on. These are awesome people I work with and do not appreciate the comments being made about them by people that have no idea what's going on.

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I am not being sarcastic. I really would like to understand more about what's happening. Right now I am searching Craigslist, posting links, and flagging. I have sent emails to Craigslist, PayPal, NPS, and Recreation.gov. The only response I have gotten has been from Craigslist saying thanks for your input. I am willing to do more.

Right now the best that those outside of the system can do is the flagging and writing Craigslist. That and a bit of patience.

Dave, if you're talking about the people on the Park level, about the people working in the Valley, well then I believe I totally understand where you are coming from in that respect. The folks "serving" the people are as frustrated, if not more, than the folks on the forum. The average years of service given by volunteer campground hosts is 15 years and they are very vocal in their concerns about this situation to the heirarchy, however, protocol and professionalism prevent them from sharing their "views" with the public, thus they are seen as "wishy washy". They definitely have a dog in the fight. This goes doubly so for the Campground Rangers, and perhaps up to the Superintendent.
If you're referring to the larger agencies, the folks "up top", well I have my reservations. But I've been clear in earlier posts about that.
Part of the problem is we don't know what's going on!
We just keep flagging and writing and hoping.
Here on the forum, without sourced information, we can only brainstorm and vent.
But that's something!
We care.

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Blue Moon
Dave, if you're talking about the people on the Park level, about the people working in the Valley, well then I believe I totally understand where you are coming from in that respect. The folks "serving" the people are as frustrated, if not more, than the folks on the forum. The average years of service given by volunteer campground hosts is 15 years and they are very vocal in their concerns about this situation to the heirarchy, however, protocol and professionalism prevent them from sharing their "views" with the public, thus they are seen as "wishy washy". They definitely have a dog in the fight. This goes doubly so for the Campground Rangers, and perhaps up to the Superintendent.

Those of us in the Park are doing the best we can with what we are given to work with. Everyone there cares. And there are constraints on what we can talk about. That's frustrating too. I just don't like to see my co-workers jumped on for something that is beyond their control.

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If you're referring to the larger agencies, the folks "up top", well I have my reservations. But I've been clear in earlier posts about that.
Part of the problem is we don't know what's going on!
We just keep flagging and writing and hoping.
Here on the forum, without sourced information, we can only brainstorm and vent.
But that's something!
We care.

We all care, and it is frustrating for everyone. I flag and hope too.

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Dave

Those of us in the Park are doing the best we can with what we are given to work with. Everyone there cares. And there are constraints on what we can talk about. That's frustrating too. I just don't like to see my co-workers jumped on for something that is beyond their control.

I know that building a case against the scalpers can take time. Also passing laws or additional regulations to make prosecution of scalpers easier can take additional time.

But it would be nice if the Park Service at least on their official website and on their Facebook page made it clear through a press release and other official statements that purchasing Yosemite campgrounds reservations from anywhere else beside from recreation.gov is illegal and not valid. And that people who do so risk being turned away at the campground gate.

I don't know understand why the Park Service doesn't do at least that (in addition to all what they are doing behind the scene).

.

Is it actually illegal to resell yosemite camping spots or just against yosemite policy/rules?

Completely legal...

Well, Dave, that's a rather beguiling and open ended statement. If you are all knowing , if you have an opinion, then by all means please share. If not, well, then why bother to post?

Dave, thanks for the reply.
I think we're on the same page.
The Valley needs our support.

Thanks. Most of us work very hard to make sure everyone has a nice visit. Low pay, hard work, but one fantastic benefit - we get to work in Yosemite.

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Dave
Thanks. Most of us work very hard to make sure everyone has a nice visit. Low pay, hard work, but one fantastic benefit - we get to work in Yosemite.

It's amazing how understaffed the park seems to be. Getting a phone call in to ask about the maps, batteries, fuel, etc. carried in the stores in the valley and TM has proved to be impossible today. Is it like that every day in the summer, or is it just because it's a Saturday? Or are the stores DNC or Conservancy operations? That's ridiculous that the park is forced to use volunteers for checkins to busy campsites.

In case anyone knows, is there a big markup on stuff like fuel canisters (the 8oz MSR cans are like $6 here in Tx) and batteries?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2012 02:57PM by mbear.

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mbear

In case anyone knows, is there a big markup on stuff like fuel canisters (the 8oz MSR cans are like $6 here in Tx) and batteries?

The last time I checked, not a big markup.

They sell fuel basically at the MSRP (manufacturer suggested retail price) with no additional markup or discount. Here in California, the price of fuel at the non-sale REI price was only slightly less (no more than a dollar or so, IIRC) than the price found inside Yosemite. Both the Yosemite Mountain Shop at Curry Village or the Village Sport Shop inside Yosemite Village has a good selection and variety of fuel canisters. The Village Store has a smaller selection. Can't remember the selection at the Tuolumne Meadows Store.
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plawrence

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mbear

In case anyone knows, is there a big markup on stuff like fuel canisters (the 8oz MSR cans are like $6 here in Tx) and batteries?

The last time I checked, not a big markup.

They sell fuel basically at the MSRP (manufacturer suggested retail price) with no additional markup or discount. Here in California, the price of fuel at the non-sale REI price was only slightly less (no more than a dollar or so, IIRC) than the price found inside Yosemite. Both the Yosemite Mountain Shop at Curry Village or the Village Sport Shop inside Yosemite Village has a good selection and variety of fuel canisters. The Village Store has a smaller selection. Can't remember the selection at the Tuolumne Meadows Store.
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So I take it one of those stores in the village is DNC, one is Conservancy, and one is NPS?

No. They're all run by DNC.

The Yosemite Conservancy only operates the bookstore inside the Yosemite Valley Vistor Center. The National Park Service itself runs no commercial concessions inside Yosemite.
.

The NPS is not "forced' to use volunteer camp hosts. It's a practical application. Volunteer Camp Hosts have been an integral part of the NPS for 30 plus years. Ask NPS, they will tell you they could not operate without them. Volunteers "volunteer" for 2-6 month stints in the park. They are there 24/7 in the campgrounds. Rangers are "required" to live outside the Park, thus leave each day by 5PM. Volunteers stay. Volunteers, until recently, allowed the Rangers much more time to interact with the public, enforce rules and reg's and preform the numerous duties only a "sworn" Ranger can reform. Tran and his primal greed has changed that. Volunteers willingly do the "grunt " work for the privilege of staying in Yosemite. They are a committed lot, make no mistake.
DNC, on the other hand, is a for profit organization. Money is the bottom line. Getting someone on the line is just as difficult in February as it is in July. Budgets are shrinking everywhere.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2012 10:56PM by Blue Moon.

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Blue Moon

DNC, on the other hand, is a for profit organization. Money is the bottom line. Getting someone on the line is just as difficult in February as it is in July.

I personally haven't had any difficulty in reaching anyone from DNC inside Yosemite National Park by phone when needed.

The simplest method is to contact the DNC switchboard operator at (209) 372-1000 and tell the operator who you want to speak to. The switchboard operator will then connect you to that person or department. The DNC switchboard inside Yosemite is staffed 24/7.
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Blue Moon
The NPS is not "forced' to use volunteer camp hosts. It's a practical application. Volunteer Camp Hosts have been an integral part of the NPS for 30 plus years. Ask NPS, they will tell you they could not operate without them. Volunteers "volunteer" for 2-6 month stints in the park. They are there 24/7 in the campgrounds. Rangers are "required" to live outside the Park, thus leave each day by 5PM. Volunteers stay. Volunteers, until recently, allowed the Rangers much more time to interact with the public, enforce rules and reg's and preform the numerous duties only a "sworn" Ranger can reform. Tran and his primal greed has changed that. Volunteers willingly do the "grunt " work for the privilege of staying in Yosemite. They are a committed lot, make no mistake.
DNC, on the other hand, is a for profit organization. Money is the bottom line. Getting someone on the line is just as difficult in February as it is in July. Budgets are shrinking everywhere.

I didn't know that; thanks for informing me. I'm curious: are volunteers in the campgrounds allowed to take days off to explore the park, or are they supposed to be working in the campsite every day they stay there?

Volunteers get two days off of each week. During the spring/summer/fall there are enough volunteers to "overlap" for coverage. During winter, there is usually a single host in Upper Pines. Most hosts have been returning for 10 years or more.

Dave, as you have an inside view do you think my two suggestions would solve enough of the problem? If you can comment, what is stopping that from happening? Your personal opinion is fine, doesn't have to be hard facts.

Thanks.

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Hitech
Dave, as you have an inside view do you think my two suggestions would solve enough of the problem? If you can comment, what is stopping that from happening? Your personal opinion is fine, doesn't have to be hard facts.

Thanks.

I wish I could add more to the conversation, but I can't. I like this job and want to keep it. We just have to be patient for now.