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Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle

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avatar Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 10, 2010 09:13PM
Generations of environmentalists have looked upon John Muir’s unsuccessful battle to save Hetch Hetchy Valley in Yosemite as the beginning of their modern movement. And just as many have wondered if the majestic, granite-walled valley might some day be restored to its natural state.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/11/us/11sfpolitics.html
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 10:17AM
Maybe the author of the piece hasn't researched it much, but previous proposals included using the capacity of other dams along the Tuolumne River. Those dams have never been completely filled and are in less sensitive areas.

It will probably never be restored to any kind of "natural" state. Any kind of restoration effort will probably bring it to a manufactured state. Of course I have no problem with that.
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 12:37PM
How long would the bath tub ring last?
Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 12:52PM
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 02:27PM
Somewhere out there in cyberspace is an article claiming about 200 years and about 40 billion dollars invested over the first many years. I haven't been able to find it after several tries.



Old Dude
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 02:38PM
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Dave
How long would the bath tub ring last?

The water level of Lake Powell has been down in recent years. However - Glen Canyon is not granite, but rather sandstone.

avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 07:33PM
I'd love to get ahold of some of the wood from those tree stumps that have been underwater for 100 years. It goes through changes and looks beautiful.

The bathtub ring will look ugly for a long time. Spray it with some iron laden water and maybe some lichen spores. It might help, or make it worse.
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 07:37PM
I can't see the bathtub ring ever going away.



Old Dude
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 09:13PM
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mrcondron
I can't see the bathtub ring ever going away.
That's right, you won't see them go away. In 5 or 6 thousand years, you'd never know it was there. Remember.... Yosemite Valley once had a similar ring.
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 09:40PM
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mrcondron
I can't see the bathtub ring ever going away.

Rock slide will take out much of it and trees will mask a lot. And then there's that old age vision thing...
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 09:45PM
There is very little rock sliding in that valley. The vision thing is another story.



Old Dude
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 09:49PM
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mrcondron
There is very little rock sliding in that valley. The vision thing is another story.

One you remove the water there will be a lot more sliding.
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 09:54PM
I see most of the sides as rather monolithic. Not a lot of loose stuff. A bit down by the dam, some at Falls Creek but most everywhere else it's pretty solid. The rims are about 1200 to 1600 feet up and the water is only 300 feet or less deep.

Don't make me come down there!



Old Dude
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 09:56PM
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mrcondron
I see most of the sides as rather monolithic. Not a lot of loose stuff.

Take a look at the base of El Capitan.
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 10:04PM
I think it would take hundreds of thousands of years to fill HH valley to the point that the bathtub ring didn't show, if ever. I don't think any of the talus in Yosemite Valley goes up to 300 feet or so above the floor.



Old Dude
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 09:39PM
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Dave
The bathtub ring will look ugly for a long time.

I still think the experiment is worth doing!
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 09:43PM
Bill-e-g and I think they should start with Lake Eleanor. Very cheap and will yield lots of data on recovery.
I proposed this to the HH recovery people and they are weighing it.



Old Dude
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 09:44PM
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mrcondron
Bill-e-g and I think they should start with Lake Eleanor. Very cheap and will yield lots of data on recovery.
I proposed this to the HH recovery people and they are weighing it.

Not a bad idea but it may make the main attraction miss its chance.
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 09:49PM
That, I think is the problem. I don't think HH restoration is something that will happen for a very long time. Money and efficacy will be the show stoppers. Doing Eleanor first may remove the efficacy argument. Money will be tough to get around.



Old Dude
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 11, 2010 11:14PM
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eeek
Quote
Dave
The bathtub ring will look ugly for a long time.

I still think the experiment is worth doing!

Lesseeee....with state parks closing left and right....two wars to finance....and an unemployed country expanding the dole...oh, yeah, SURE...lets drop a few $$$$$ on an aesthetic experiment (hey, why not -- the space program will be going bye-bye in a few, perhaps that will free up a few bucks!)

(WARNING: foul mood due to tax preparations in progress)
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 12, 2010 06:01AM
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Bee
(WARNING: foul mood due to tax preparations in progress)


So, we take it that you are not doing any Snoopy-type Happy Dance at the moment?
(signed)
The Beaks

P.S. Better than a fowl mood.
P.P.S. Don't forget Form 4868.
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 12, 2010 06:56AM
Lake Thomas Edison (near Vermillion Valley "Resort" ):



There were lots of trees for Llama Davey. They didn't look so nice.
I need to get to Eleanor or Florence when it's drained.
The more I think about it it's not THAT bad. I think it would come back rather quickly.
HH would have more issue since they raped it to build the dam.
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 16, 2010 08:25PM
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bill-e-g
Lake Thomas Edison (near Vermillion Valley "Resort" ):

There were lots of trees for Llama Davey. They didn't look so nice.

The outside may look horrible, but the inside wood takes on a beauty that non-waterlogged wood can't.

I was at Edison in the early 80's. I saw a brown trout that was huge! I thought it was a log floating in the lake.

Quote

I need to get to Eleanor or Florence when it's drained.
The more I think about it it's not THAT bad. I think it would come back rather quickly.
HH would have more issue since they raped it to build the dam.

I went to a bunch af lakes during a drought long ago. I took a map and marked all the "structures" that fish would hide in. When the lakes filled up again, I knew where to fish. I should publish those maps.
avatar Re: Taking New Tack in Hetch Hetchy Battle
April 16, 2010 07:47PM
This post is moving off the original thread a bit, but..... it is my opinion that HH's return to its former beauty isn't an issue of if, but when? In geologic time, the damn (uh, dam) will last just a heartbeat, and the "ring" will also disappear. Personally, I'd rather see it sooner than later.
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