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Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads

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Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 01:50AM
OK, you people are making it impossible to fix my broken vacation plans.

Let me throw out this not-so-hypothetical situation, just so you know who you're screwing over by flagging every single ad out there.

I booked half dome permits for a weekend in July, and recently had to cancel the trip due to a wedding. If some appropriate forum existed out there, I might be able to trade my permits with someone in a similar situation. Instead, I'm facing not only the difficulty of finding someone willing to trade dates, I've also got an apparently large internet vigilante squad sitting on their laptops with nothing better to do than flag any ad for anything which they come across.

If you flag something, why don't you find out whether it actually is some A-Hole scammer before hitting the button. Else, you're the A-Hole.

Thanks-
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 04:56AM
If only some appropriate forum existed to trade permits!

But it doesn't. How is that this forum's fault?
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 05:41AM
Actually an exact such forum does exist. I have empathy for you. I saw folks who gathered as many pemits as possible in hopes of trading for the dates they desired. The system that will sell out at 7:02 this morning has frustrated and created desperation. The flaggers believe they can't know for sure so they are flagging everything. I think that approach is too strong but I do flag obvious sellers. I also believe flaggers of items that are not explicity prohibited are probably breaking the "rules" of Craigslist. Thus one rule breaker follows another. It is almost an end justifies the means argument.

I don't think Yosemite will do it this way again. Unless, as reported, they continue to believe the scalping problem is not as widespread as reported by the mass media. Yosemite officials have said they don't believe it is computer systems collecting tickets but insteas just small timers apparently trying to make a few bucks.

The site you are looking for: google Half Dome Permit Trading and the top two sites offer exchange options. I know the second google page works.
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 06:41AM
I don't flag anything offering a straight trade. I actually read every post I flag and get a sense of whether it is a scalper or someone likely to feed a scalper. If they offer to pay, I flag. If it's a straight trade, I don't. I can't speak for all the people doing the flagging.

That said, it's no one's fault here that you can't hike Half Dome. Go complain to the park service. Or pick a different hike.

I second the rec to visit the two sites specifically set up for trading permits. Those are probably going to be more helpful than CL would have been anyway.

Also, why don't you think the scalpers are flagging ads as well? Or random people? I've had ads for a whole variety of things flagged off for no apparent reason other than someone was selling the same thing and wanted my ad gone.
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:00AM
The park is trying to make it safe for people to do Half Dome, not inconvenience people, and folks who think that they have to go - HAVE TO - at any cost - crowding up the trail and jamming the cables for HOURS AND HOURS three people deep in a line across the subdome and down the switchbacks - created their own problem.

I'm glad you won't be getting hurt - there's lots of places to go, lots of peaks to climb (that you don't need ropes to do) - don't let Half Dome ruin the trip for you. North Dome is a great view - better than Half Dome. So is Clouds Rest. For that matter you could easily hike as far as the subdome - the permit is just for the cables. The only thing ruining your trip is the do-or-die attitude - you could take the time you'd be hiking Half Dome and do, well, LOTS of things!

Take a little responsibility for yourself and do yourself the favor of going somewhere 50,000 people/year don't go.

Go up Mt Dana. Six miles round trip, 13,000 feet, and a view that takes your breath away. Hoffman? a couple miles to May Lake, a couple miles to the top.

You may now commence the blind, devoted dedication that Half Dome seekers display by raging at me that it's "not the same." IMO, it's better, and you can always try for permits next year when they improve the method of obtaining them.
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:28AM
I've flagged a few that had permits for sale because that's illegal. Trading permits no problem. I'm wondering why the thread originator schedules a vacation in Yosemite for a weekend? Both times I've hiked up Half Dome have been on Wednesday and Thursday...no permit required
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 09:01AM
Permits are now required 7 days a week.
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:55AM
I think all this Half Dome permit and campsite flagging is silly and a little hysterical, imo. Sorry to hear that a few with too much time on their hands are making it difficult for you fix your vacation plans. Try this website::: http://mrhalfdome.wordpress.com/2011/03/01/to-get-or-give-permits-click-here/
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 09:47AM
Quote
Hatomato
I think all this Half Dome permit and campsite flagging is silly and a little hysterical, imo. Sorry to hear that a few with too much time on their hands are making it difficult for you fix your vacation plans. Try this website::: http://mrhalfdome.wordpress.com/2011/03/01/to-get-or-give-permits-click-here/

So the next time any of us can't get a site when the camping reservation window opens, and then we see the scalpers reselling
Yosemite campsites the next day on Craigslist for 5 times their face value, we should just smile and happily pay those black market prices?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2011 09:53AM by PineCone.
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 10:17AM
Quote
PineCone
Quote
Hatomato
I think all this Half Dome permit and campsite flagging is silly and a little hysterical, imo. Sorry to hear that a few with too much time on their hands are making it difficult for you fix your vacation plans. Try this website::: http://mrhalfdome.wordpress.com/2011/03/01/to-get-or-give-permits-click-here/

So the next time any of us can't get a site when the camping reservation window opens, and then we see the scalpers reselling
Yosemite campsites the next day on Craigslist for 5 times their face value, we should just smile and happily pay those black market prices?

Well put



http://www.flickr.com/photos/dqniel/
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 10:36AM
I've been to Yosemite nearly 20 times over the last 15 years and never been up Half Dome. It's somewhat interesting, but I hate crowds and am not that eager to get up there.
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 05:33PM
Quote
PineCone
Quote
Hatomato
I think all this Half Dome permit and campsite flagging is silly and a little hysterical, imo. Sorry to hear that a few with too much time on their hands are making it difficult for you fix your vacation plans. Try this website::: http://mrhalfdome.wordpress.com/2011/03/01/to-get-or-give-permits-click-here/

So the next time any of us can't get a site when the camping reservation window opens, and then we see the scalpers reselling
Yosemite campsites the next day on Craigslist for 5 times their face value, we should just smile and happily pay those black market prices?

If you want to get a camping reservation, yes. Otherwise I guess you can stay home.
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 05:57PM
Quote
Hatomato
I think all this Half Dome permit and campsite flagging is silly and a little hysterical, imo. Sorry to hear that a few with too much time on their hands are making it difficult for you fix your vacation plans. Try this website::: http://mrhalfdome.wordpress.com/2011/03/01/to-get-or-give-permits-click-here/

what you said is on par with you feeling sympathy for buyers of stolen goods.
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 09:03AM
It's not the least bit silly or hysterical to flag the posts where people are trying to sell campsites or permits. It's illegal to do so and harms far more than it helps, if it even "helps" anybody other than those profiting.

Trading, however, as others have already said, is probably fine. My guess is that somebody got a little overzealous and accidentally flagged it before reading it all or understanding the rules. That doesn't make flagging the "for sale" listings wrong in the process; it just means somebody made a mistake.



http://www.flickr.com/photos/dqniel/
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 01:56PM
All this hype & drama... and the cables aren't even up yet sad smiley
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 09:28AM
Craiglist isn't a forum for trading things, and most of the time people talk about trades in their ads they really mean sales once you contact them. It's an imperfect solution to flag en masse, but hopefully it will temporarily drive the scalpers out and let regular people have a decent shot at getting permits directly from the NPS without having to go through middlemen. Of course the best solution would be for Yosemite to make permits non-transferrable, have some first-come first-serve, up the price on them so it'll hurt a scalper to eat their reservations, etc. Hopefully some/all of those ideas are put in place for the 2012 season.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2011 09:33AM by mbear.
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 10:20AM
I haven't participated in the flogging at all... so I'm innocent.

But ALL the crap SHOULD be flagged and removed.
The people who got the permits that don't need them simply should return them.
That is the process. Not the bullcrap of "let's just grab anything and then I'll trade them".
Or I'll sell them.

Sorry your plans are foiled or whatnot.
Yosemite is a very large place. Very. Half Dome is not it's all cracked up to be.
Go somewhere else. If you want to stand atop a rock with others with their cell phones
you can go to Sentinel Dome too.
Or go up canyon. Merced River Canyon is incredible beyond LYV. And you won't see the
throngs that go up The Dome.



Chick-on is looking at you!
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 10:57AM
IMO this one should NOT be flagged http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/tix/2414875284.html but I am sure it will be gone soon since it was listed in the ads for flagging thread


Half Dome permits NOT FOR SALE, ONLY TRADE

I have 3 seperate September Half Dome cables permits. One for September 15th, 20th, and 22nd. I need to trade for anytime during July 11-20th. I have a group of four going up but we have no permits due to the new rediculous system. Please message me if you can help or want to trade. Thanks!
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 11:07AM
Quote
hotrod4x5
IMO this one should NOT be flagged http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/tix/2414875284.html but I am sure it will be gone soon since it was listed in the ads for flagging thread


Half Dome permits NOT FOR SALE, ONLY TRADE

I have 3 seperate September Half Dome cables permits. One for September 15th, 20th, and 22nd. I need to trade for anytime during July 11-20th. I have a group of four going up but we have no permits due to the new rediculous system. Please message me if you can help or want to trade. Thanks!

So you think it's fine to grab a bunch of permits that you won't be using just for the purpose of trading?
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 11:10AM
Quote
eeek
Quote
hotrod4x5
IMO this one should NOT be flagged http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/tix/2414875284.html but I am sure it will be gone soon since it was listed in the ads for flagging thread


Half Dome permits NOT FOR SALE, ONLY TRADE

I have 3 seperate September Half Dome cables permits. One for September 15th, 20th, and 22nd. I need to trade for anytime during July 11-20th. I have a group of four going up but we have no permits due to the new rediculous system. Please message me if you can help or want to trade. Thanks!

So you think it's fine to grab a bunch of permits that you won't be using just for the purpose of trading?
Well, I guess not. Since he has 3, obviously its not that he just had to change his vacation date. If he had ONE day to trade, then I suppose it would be more acceptable. I guess what he did was get permits for whatever day he could, knowing it didn't overlap his July 11th-20th vacation, with the hopes of trading them.

So, in retrospect, I guess this one is not cool.

EDIT: and I just learned that those permits he has he got THIS morning at 7 am! VERY NOT COOL, I totally agree!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2011 11:30AM by hotrod4x5.
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 11:33AM
I sent that guy the following email:


So let me get this straight, you snatched THREE permits today at 7 am for days you CAN'T go, in hopes of trading them for days you are already planning to go???? Who gives a crap about the guy who is camping in Sept. and now can't get a permit????

That sucks! You are abusing the system and making it worse for everyone.
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 12:23PM
I don't think that it is "fine" to snatch up a bunch of permits in hopes of trading. But it isn't prohibited. And I believe flagging those items on Craigslist may be abusing the flagging system and probably breaking the rules that are intended for activity that really is illegal.

At this point I really don't think it matters anymore. I hope and hopefully it isn't wishful thinking that Yosemite will change the system. But anything else done this year really doesn't matter. In many ways, at this point if people are willing to pay I hope they find a way to get a permit and just go; better than the tickets going to waste. Hopefully the flagging process discouraged some from snatching up tickets today but hopefully after the October tickets this will all be over.
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 02:11PM
Scholzie appears to have the classic disneydome tourist mentality.

From his profile:
Hiking Ability - None
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 02:24PM
Quote
doctorscholz
OK, you people are making it impossible to fix my broken vacation plans.

Take a chance and hike to the sub-dome. Chances are good that someone turned in an unneeded permit and the ranger there will let you use it.
And as others have said, and I agree, there are places to go with much better rewards. Clouds Rest from Tenaya Lake is a far superior day hike.

While trading may not be against the rules it does cause permit snatching which exacerbates the problem. The HD Blog seems to be a decent place to trade as the blog owner screens the postings. Anything on Craig's List is more than likely a monied deal and fair game.

Added about one hour after my post a CL ad where someone grabbed as many permits as possible in hopes of trading:
(Do you see the point of flagging?)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi --

I am in need of several half dome climbing permits for Saturday, 9/17/11. I have campgrounds reserved for this weekend and my friends and I were hoping to do this hike on 9/17 but I was unable to reserve any permits as they were all reserved within seconds when the permits became available.
I managed to reserve permits for the following dates if anyone is willing to trade. I am trying to get as many as 12. You can pick any of the dates listed below:

Tuesday, 9/6 -- 4 permits
Tuesday, 9/13 -- 4 permits
Wednesday, 9/14 -- 4 permits
Sunday, 9/18 -- 4 permits
Monday, 9/19 -- 2 permits
Wednesday, 9/21 -- 2 permits.

Please respond to the email listed in this ad. Much appreciated!!!



Location: Anywhere
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests



PostingID: 2415433222



Old Dude



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2011 03:07PM by mrcondron.
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 03:41PM
I'm not going to stop flagging because some people are getting a bunch of permits for days they know they won't be going in hopes of trading for days they will (or worse selling them). Half Dome has become a business and IMHO it's sickening. Books, classes, lectures, etc. all for one destination in Yosemite with one thing in common - money and ego.

It's a real shame the NPS doesn't have the same system that Mt. Whitney has where you have to show ID. It has become an anything goes circus to get permits. Too bad the permit system that was put in place to help save lives and preserve the ecological balance on Half Dome has become such a sorry spectacle.

I think it's time to tell NPS to start looking at ID next season.
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 03:51PM
Quote
rightstar76
I think it's time to tell NPS to start looking at ID next season.

They certainly need to do something different. This "system" was shoved in with no thought and, I suspect, before the new superintendent took office. It needs to change and nobody needs to be hearing excuses.
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 04:00PM
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 05:32PM
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 07:50PM
Quote
doctorscholz
OK, you people are making it impossible to fix my broken vacation plans.

Let me throw out this not-so-hypothetical situation, just so you know who you're screwing over by flagging every single ad out there.

I booked half dome permits for a weekend in July, and recently had to cancel the trip due to a wedding. If some appropriate forum existed out there, I might be able to trade my permits with someone in a similar situation. Instead, I'm facing not only the difficulty of finding someone willing to trade dates, I've also got an apparently large internet vigilante squad sitting on their laptops with nothing better to do than flag any ad for anything which they come across.

If you flag something, why don't you find out whether it actually is some A-Hole scammer before hitting the button. Else, you're the A-Hole.

Thanks-


AMEN! Thanks for saying what these dirtbaggers need to hear. Its one thing to take down someone's ad who is SELLING permits. Its another to take down ads when someone is trading. I posted the craigslist ad quoted above that everyone is hating on. My husband, myself, and two friends of ours have been wanting to hike half dome ever since we heard about it recently. We have friends that live in Mammoth and decided to go see them and booked our flights planning on hiking the dome while we were out there. Did we realize we had to have permits to hike it? Yes. Did we realize they were so hard to get?? NO! So our vacation was planned and booked and waddaya know, no permits available. So after a few weeks of searching I stumbled across a blog (that I wont name tho I'm sure you've heard of it and will probably try to flag it somehow) that allowed hikers to trade or give their permits to those who had none. What seems to be the main way of obtaining permits if you don't have any? TRADING. Does that screw up the system for everyone? YES. It certainly does. And as I replied to that hater that sent me an email, I dont agree with the system either. But EVERYONE is doing it to get permits and if you want permits its what you gotta do if you've missed the 5 minute window of opportunity at 7am the first of each month. Did I get permits I don't need in order to trade for some I can use? Yep, sure did. But are those permits going to go to waste? heck no! My flight leaves mid July and the permits I'm trading are for two months later! At the end of June I'm going to give my permits to someone who needs them or put them back in the system for someone to buy. They won't go to waste. So why don't you people mind your own business, quit flagging Craigslist ad's that are perfectly legal, and let us find a way to get up Half Dome??!

(PS I didn't log on at 7AM and snatch permits. I just looked at random times throughout the day and found a few here and there that popped up into the system. I think I got one at about 2 PM even! And I'll tell you what I told the guy who emailed me: IF YOU'RE SO CONCERNED DON'T SPEND ALL DAY ON CRAIGSLIST. Write this guy and tell him how crappy the permit system is so maybe next year they can work something out that won't be such a chaotic mess!)
Don_Neubacher@nps.gov
Don Neubacher, Superintendent
Yosemite National Park
Attn: Half Dome Trail Permits
P.O. Box 577
Yosemite, CA 95389
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:07PM
Quote
justahiker
AMEN! Thanks for saying what these dirtbaggers need to hear. Its one thing to take down someone's ad who is SELLING permits. Its another to take down ads when someone is trading. I posted the craigslist ad quoted above that everyone is hating on. My husband, myself, and two friends of ours have been wanting to hike half dome ever since we heard about it recently. We have friends that live in Mammoth and decided to go see them and booked our flights planning on hiking the dome while we were out there. Did we realize we had to have permits to hike it? Yes. Did we realize they were so hard to get?? NO! So our vacation was planned and booked and waddaya know, no permits available. So after a few weeks of searching I stumbled across a blog (that I wont name tho I'm sure you've heard of it and will probably try to flag it somehow) that allowed hikers to trade or give their permits to those who had none. What seems to be the main way of obtaining permits if you don't have any? TRADING. Does that screw up the system for everyone? YES. It certainly does. And as I replied to that hater that sent me an email, I dont agree with the system either. But EVERYONE is doing it to get permits and if you want permits its what you gotta do if you've missed the 5 minute window of opportunity at 7am the first of each month. Did I get permits I don't need in order to trade for some I can use? Yep, sure did. But are those permits going to go to waste? heck no! My flight leaves mid July and the permits I'm trading are for two months later! At the end of June I'm going to give my permits to someone who needs them or put them back in the system for someone to buy. They won't go to waste. So why don't you people mind your own business, quit flagging Craigslist ad's that are perfectly legal, and let us find a way to get up Half Dome??!

(PS I didn't log on at 7AM and snatch permits. I just looked at random times throughout the day and found a few here and there that popped up into the system. I think I got one at about 2 PM even! And I'll tell you what I told the guy who emailed me: IF YOU'RE SO CONCERNED DON'T SPEND ALL DAY ON CRAIGSLIST. Write this guy and tell him how crappy the permit system is so maybe next year they can work something out that won't be such a chaotic mess!)
Don_Neubacher@nps.gov
Don Neubacher, Superintendent
Yosemite National Park
Attn: Half Dome Trail Permits
P.O. Box 577
Yosemite, CA 95389

Oh, many have written to him along with others in the National Park system. You think the scalpers will magically disappear?

Listen, I feel for your messed up plans. Though I haven't seen your ads, some scalpers are posting under the trading disguise. I have many chain of emails that have been forwarded to YNPS where the original "trading" offer was actually a ploy to test buyers who respond.

Then we have the people who buy up as many permits as they can for a month they have no plans on using in an effort to trade for one specific date.

Now, explain to me how THAT is fair for people who are trying to get one specific date, but in turn can't because people buy them up to trade.
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:10PM
Like I said, its NOT fair. I agree. It sucks. But was I the first one to start this whole trading thing? No. And is it going to stop because you flag someones craigslist ad? Nope. So I'm going to do what I gotta do to make the most of my vacation. In the end the permits will be give to people who were wanting them to begin with so whats the big effin deal anyway?
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:19PM
Quote
justahiker
Like I said, its NOT fair. I agree. It sucks. But was I the first one to start this whole trading thing? No. And is it going to stop because you flag someones craigslist ad? Nope. So I'm going to do what I gotta do to make the most of my vacation. In the end the permits will be give to people who were wanting them to begin with so whats the big effin deal anyway?

You ARE aware of the fact that scalpers have automated programs that snatch permits from recreation.gov when someone cancels them? This is something that HAS been confirmed by the NPS when I called in.

Similar to how you said we spend all day on craigslist, there are people who don't have time to check recreation.gov every minute for permits.

So, when you do cancel them, they will be swept up by scalpers and sold on craigslist.

Now, do I or others who help in flagging craigslist ads believe we are stopping anyone straight up? Of course not, but we are putting a dent in the scalping business based on the numerous childish threats the scalpers have been sending to myself and others on this forum, which simply means that it's hurting their dirty wallets.

Mr. Half Dome has a blog dedicated to people who want to trade and or give away permits. Check that blog regularly. He monitors every post that is made.
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:31PM
There are literally DOZENS of things to do besides hike to the top of Half Dome and have a wonderful Yosemite experience, here are just a few:

Rent a raft and meander down the Merced, stopping along the shore for a picnic. Hike up the four mile trail and down the Panorama trail. Hike to the top of Yosemite falls and back, or keep going and descend via the Snow Creek Falls trail. Hike to the top of Cloud's rest. Spend a day swimming in the Merced. Hike the entire valley loop. Take in a live performance of Lee Stetson as he re-enacts a story from one of John Muir's books. Rent bikes and ride around the valley. Rent a horse and ride to whereever they are going now that the trail under Half Dome is closed. Walk to the bottom of Yosemite Falls and then scramble on the rocks to see how close you can get to the lower falls. (be careful!). Hike the Mist Trail to the top of Vernal fall and if you are still hungry to the top of Nevada Fall. Hike to and in one of the three Sequoia groves in the park. Take in a round of golf at Wawona. Hike from Glacier Point to Sentinal Dome and back.

And I haven't even scratched the surface or mentioned the high country.
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:19PM
Quote
justahiker
Quote
doctorscholz
OK, you people are making it impossible to fix my broken vacation plans.

Let me throw out this not-so-hypothetical situation, just so you know who you're screwing over by flagging every single ad out there.

I booked half dome permits for a weekend in July, and recently had to cancel the trip due to a wedding. If some appropriate forum existed out there, I might be able to trade my permits with someone in a similar situation. Instead, I'm facing not only the difficulty of finding someone willing to trade dates, I've also got an apparently large internet vigilante squad sitting on their laptops with nothing better to do than flag any ad for anything which they come across.

If you flag something, why don't you find out whether it actually is some A-Hole scammer before hitting the button. Else, you're the A-Hole.

Thanks-


AMEN! Thanks for saying what these dirtbaggers need to hear. Its one thing to take down someone's ad who is SELLING permits. Its another to take down ads when someone is trading. I posted the craigslist ad quoted above that everyone is hating on. My husband, myself, and two friends of ours have been wanting to hike half dome ever since we heard about it recently. We have friends that live in Mammoth and decided to go see them and booked our flights planning on hiking the dome while we were out there. Did we realize we had to have permits to hike it? Yes. Did we realize they were so hard to get?? NO! So our vacation was planned and booked and waddaya know, no permits available. So after a few weeks of searching I stumbled across a blog (that I wont name tho I'm sure you've heard of it and will probably try to flag it somehow) that allowed hikers to trade or give their permits to those who had none. What seems to be the main way of obtaining permits if you don't have any? TRADING. Does that screw up the system for everyone? YES. It certainly does. And as I replied to that hater that sent me an email, I dont agree with the system either. But EVERYONE is doing it to get permits and if you want permits its what you gotta do if you've missed the 5 minute window of opportunity at 7am the first of each month. Did I get permits I don't need in order to trade for some I can use? Yep, sure did. But are those permits going to go to waste? heck no! My flight leaves mid July and the permits I'm trading are for two months later! At the end of June I'm going to give my permits to someone who needs them or put them back in the system for someone to buy. They won't go to waste. So why don't you people mind your own business, quit flagging Craigslist ad's that are perfectly legal, and let us find a way to get up Half Dome??!

(PS I didn't log on at 7AM and snatch permits. I just looked at random times throughout the day and found a few here and there that popped up into the system. I think I got one at about 2 PM even! And I'll tell you what I told the guy who emailed me: IF YOU'RE SO CONCERNED DON'T SPEND ALL DAY ON CRAIGSLIST. Write this guy and tell him how crappy the permit system is so maybe next year they can work something out that won't be such a chaotic mess!)
Don_Neubacher@nps.gov
Don Neubacher, Superintendent
Yosemite National Park
Attn: Half Dome Trail Permits
P.O. Box 577
Yosemite, CA 95389

I agree that the current system is broken. However, I disagree that buying a bunch of permits for times that you can't make the hike with the hopes of trading them for times that you can make the hike is an acceptable way to fix the issue. Maybe the person who wanted the time you took doesn't know about, or want to go through, a trading process. For that person who wanted to legitimately use the permit system, they have effectively been shut out even though the time they wanted is still truly available. It may not be illegal, but it's just adding to the inconvenience of an already-broken system by adding more transactions and complications to the mix.

The way to fix the issue isn't by adding chaos to attempt to get what you want at the possible detriment of others- it's by expressing our concerns en masse to the one(s) who created the broken system.

In short- life isn't fair. However, that's no an excuse to go and knowingly do things to make it even less fair for everybody else in order to make it better for yourself. If I was in the same situation as you, as I have in other instances regarding permits or tickets (but not at Yosemite), then I'd think of something else to do during my time out there. I wouldn't take permits that I had no possibility of using, possibly causing vacation issues identical to the quandary you were so upset about. Don't you see the hypocrisy in that?



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2011 08:22PM by dqniel.
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:34PM
LOL life isn't fair. No kidding. I'm not making it any less fair than it already was to begin with. Once again trading, is not illegal! Sure it may add to the chaos but the chaos will be there irregardless. And how exactly will someone trying to get permits through the system be unable to get those permits once I return them to the system?? They can just buy them the same way I did, with I might add, plenty of time to make plans to hike.

My whole point is not to debate the crappyness of the permit lottery. My point is don't go around flagging people who don't deserve it. Read the craigslists ads carefully. I see no problem flagging people who charge 150 bucks for a permit or someone who has snagged bunches of permits for random dates that they plan on turning any amount of profit on or someone who seems shady. But someone like myself, shouldn't be penalized because I happened to grab permits today with the hopes of trading with someone so we can help each other get out and enjoy Half Dome. Does that make me less honerable than you? Maybe in your opinion. But in the end, both parties in the deal get what they want and my tickets will be used by SOMEONE so ultimately I don't see the need to flag traders.
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:37PM
Quote
justahiker
LOL life isn't fair. No kidding. I'm not making it any less fair than it already was to begin with. Once again trading, is not illegal! Sure it may add to the chaos but the chaos will be there irregardless. And how exactly will someone trying to get permits through the system be unable to get those permits once I return them to the system?? They can just buy them the same way I did, with I might add, plenty of time to make plans to hike.

My whole point is not to debate the crappyness of the permit lottery. My point is don't go around flagging people who don't deserve it. Read the craigslists ads carefully. I see no problem flagging people who charge 150 bucks for a permit or someone who has snagged bunches of permits for random dates that they plan on turning any amount of profit on or someone who seems shady. But someone like myself, shouldn't be penalized because I happened to grab permits today with the hopes of trading with someone so we can help each other get out and enjoy Half Dome. Does that make me less honerable than you? Maybe in your opinion. But in the end, both parties in the deal get what they want and my tickets will be used by SOMEONE so ultimately I don't see the need to flag traders.
If the person you want to trade with had not grabbed permits he can't use, then you could have gotten them, what an a$$hole, huh?
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:40PM
Quote
justahiker
And how exactly will someone trying to get permits through the system be unable to get those permits once I return them to the system?? They can just buy them the same way I did, with I might add, plenty of time to make plans to hike.

you obviously didn't read my post, but I'll say it again...

Scalpers have automated programs that snatch permits that are returned to recreation.gov

So, unless you are sitting refreshing every day, 5 minutes at a time, even if they get cancelled, you won't be able to get them.
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:24PM
Quote
justahiker
Did I get permits I don't need in order to trade for some I can use? Yep, sure did.

Then you are part of the problem for everyone else, you are preventing people who don't hang out on Craigslist from hiking with the permits you admittedly snagged with no intent to use. As you noted the system is screwed up and needs to be fixed, but that's not an excuse for abusing it in the meantime.

I didn't initially join the flagging because it wasn't really my thing. Having scalpers IM private information about others who were flagging just because I'm a registered member here helped convince me it should be my thing, I'm really not into letting the bastards win. So did seeing people trying to scalp/swap/whatever-you-call-it wilderness permits for LYV. As a wilderness user I figured that if I wanted others to stop this nonsense with respect to my use of Our park, I should help others with their issues. So I am.
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:30PM
Quote
justahiker
Did I get permits I don't need in order to trade for some I can use? Yep, sure did.

Then you are scalping tickets just like the guy that's selling them. The only difference is you aren't doing it for money.
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:35PM
Thats a pretty big difference.
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:50PM
So, if you can't hike Half Dome, your entire vacation will be ruined? How tragic! I'm really sad for you. Really, I am.

Of course, calling me and the others who are flagging the scalpers and other who are snatching up permits they don't actually intend to use, "dirtbags" doesn't make me feel quite as sorry for you not being able to get the permits you want. More like sad for you that you've based your entire vacation plans on hiking ONE DOME and didn't come up with a viable back up plan. Life isn't fair. But just because other people break the rules and make it difficult for you to get the permits you want doesn't mean you get to also break the rules. As my dad always told me, "two wrongs... blah blah blah" (yeah, I didn't listen to it either).

Use the trade blog.

But don't expect me to feel sorry for you, or to care much that you're angry with me for flagging your post. Hike something else in Yosemite. It's a gorgeous park filled with countless beautiful, adventurous, challenging hikes with amazingly rewarding views. Unless you're hiking Half Dome as a means to boast about it to others who either have or haven't hiked it, but have undoubtedly heard about it. Which is OK. But still not a valid reason to screw other people out of their chances at getting permits for the dates they want.

You found this forum when you were angry. Take a minute to look around and read some of the posts, and then think about what you're doing. If you're still angry, then go on being angry. But if you decide that maybe we're not a bunch of dirtbags who are only here to ruin your vacation, I think we'd graciously accept your apology.
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:03PM
"My husband, myself, and two friends of ours have been wanting to hike half dome ever since we heard about it recently."

Funny.
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:17PM
Haha... someone trying to game the system calls us dirtbaggers. Funny how everyone all of a sudden advertises trading permits on craigslist after getting flagged for selling/buying them.
Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 08:51PM
I'm pretty sure this person is a scalper trying a "reasonable" approach to convince board members to stop flagging his "trade" ads on craigslist. But if it were a real person, it would be a good example of a strain of immorality commonly seen these days.
avatar Re: Message to all those Flagging Yosemite ads
June 01, 2011 09:08PM
Quote
Swamp Thing
I'm pretty sure this person is a scalper trying a "reasonable" approach to convince board members to stop flagging his "trade" ads on craigslist. But if it were a real person, it would be a good example of a strain of immorality commonly seen these days.

Yeah, he posted from China. Way to make it obvious.
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