Re: Scalper and buyer ads to flag

While you spend literally ALL DAY on Craigslist and then championing your triumphs (5 REMOVED!!!) on this blog, you've taken down my posting several times to offer my permits for face value. http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/tix/2423510070.html

It's actually pathetic, you spend all your time on a computer (NOT outdoors) trying to enforce the Half Dome permit policy, instead of realizing that it is an awful policy, put together by a poorly run organization. Not only do they not understand the value of these extremely limited permits for one of the best hikes in the world ($1.50!!!), but they also cant come up with a half decent way to reserve them, refund them, or disallow re-sell.

Why don't you spend your time working on ideas or putting together a proposal for the national parks service to regulate the traffic on the cables so that scalping isn't a viable option? Oh yeah, it's because you're simple-minded wieners who can only think to fight the effect of a problem, and not the cause. Here are some obvious ways they could prevent scalping if they really cared:
1. Require a name to be provided, whose IDs must be shown to Ranger at cables, for all reserved permits. Allow each ID hiker to have one non-ID guest present with them if you want some flexibility for kids or friends.
2. Allow refunds. (I would return my tickets if I could get my money back directly from the NPS).

I am actually more disgusted that you clowns spend your days helping this terrible process survive than I am at people re-selling permits. At least the people re-selling permits have something real to gain from their efforts. You all are trying to gain some feeble sense of power and self worth - really guys, you are NOT fighting the good fight. Get over yourselves. You are just a bunch of geeks temporarily helping some non-Craigslist/non-eBay site get traffic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2011 07:44PM by eeek.

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scotteo123
It's actually pathetic, you spend all your time on a computer (NOT outdoors) trying to enforce the Half Dome permit policy

What's actually pathetic is somebody that buys a bunch of Half Dome permits that he can't use and then comes whining here for sympathy.

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scotteo123
While you spend literally ALL DAY on Craigslist and then championing your triumphs (5 REMOVED!!!) on this blog, you've taken down my posting several times to offer my permits for face value. http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/tix/2423510070.html

It's actually pathetic, you spend all your time on a computer (NOT outdoors) trying to enforce the Half Dome permit policy, instead of realizing that it is an awful policy, put together by a poorly run organization. Not only do they not understand the value of these extremely limited permits for one of the best hikes in the world ($1.50!!!), but they also cant come up with a half decent way to reserve them, refund them, or disallow re-sell.

Why don't you spend your time working on ideas or putting together a proposal for the national parks service to regulate the traffic on the cables so that scalping isn't a viable option? Oh yeah, it's because you're simple-minded wieners who can only think to fight the effect of a problem, and not the cause. Here are some obvious ways they could prevent scalping if they really cared:
1. Require a name to be provided, whose IDs must be shown to Ranger at cables, for all reserved permits. Allow each ID hiker to have one non-ID guest present with them if you want some flexibility for kids or friends.
2. Allow refunds. (I would return my tickets if I could get my money back directly from the NPS).

I am actually more disgusted that you clowns spend your days helping this terrible process survive than I am at people re-selling permits. At least the people re-selling permits have something real to gain from their efforts. You all are trying to gain some feeble sense of power and self worth - really guys, you are NOT fighting the good fight. Get over yourselves. You are just a bunch of geeks temporarily helping some non-Craigslist/non-eBay site get traffic.

Scotteo,
If you can't use your permits then turn them back in. That way you won't look like a scalper. By the way I work all day as do most people on this forum it's just that we don't particularly like people that abuse the system however flawed it is.

---

Old Dude

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scotteo123
While you spend literally ALL DAY on Craigslist and then championing your triumphs (5 REMOVED!!!) on this blog, you've taken down my posting several times to offer my permits for face value. http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/tix/2423510070.html

It's actually pathetic, you spend all your time on a computer (NOT outdoors) trying to enforce the Half Dome permit policy, instead of realizing that it is an awful policy, put together by a poorly run organization. Not only do they not understand the value of these extremely limited permits for one of the best hikes in the world ($1.50!!!), but they also cant come up with a half decent way to reserve them, refund them, or disallow re-sell.

Why don't you spend your time working on ideas or putting together a proposal for the national parks service to regulate the traffic on the cables so that scalping isn't a viable option? Oh yeah, it's because you're simple-minded wieners who can only think to fight the effect of a problem, and not the cause. Here are some obvious ways they could prevent scalping if they really cared:
1. Require a name to be provided, whose IDs must be shown to Ranger at cables, for all reserved permits. Allow each ID hiker to have one non-ID guest present with them if you want some flexibility for kids or friends.
2. Allow refunds. (I would return my tickets if I could get my money back directly from the NPS).

I am actually more disgusted that you clowns spend your days helping this terrible process survive than I am at people re-selling permits. At least the people re-selling permits have something real to gain from their efforts. You all are trying to gain some feeble sense of power and self worth - really guys, you are NOT fighting the good fight. Get over yourselves. You are just a bunch of geeks temporarily helping some non-Craigslist/non-eBay site get traffic.

hehe, I'm gonna have fun with this one

So, which one is it? You complain that the NPS is severely undervaluing "one of the best hikes in the world" for $1.50 and then you spend god knows how long trying to rant to us that you are simply trying to sell them at face value by saying "I would return my tickets if I could get my money back directly from the NPS."

Yea....you really would return your tickets for such "undervalued" $1.50 permits.



Another tidbit I find interesting is that those complaining believe we decided to flag these scalpers out of the blue.
Believe me, I and many others have talked on the phone with YNP and have had many email communications with them. I have forwarded many email chains that I have had with scalpers and they have been forwarding them to law enforcement. We've had many conversations with the staff at YNP handling the permit system and they are actively pursuing a change in the entire process. However, if you are so naive to think that this system with be changed in the middle of the season, then well...by all means, continue your raging rant. You guys are honestly hilarious to read.

On a side note, I think it's time for myself and others who have been flagging these ads to receive a medal of honor from YNP. Afterall, we have been cold blooded crime fighting machines with a bloated sense of power!! My self worth seems to have been depreciated to an all time low after reading your post.

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sactown23
you spend god knows how long trying to rant to us that you are simply trying to sell them at face value by saying "I would return my tickets if I could get my money back directly from the NPS."

I wonder how many permits he has if a loss $1.50 each is bad enough to need to rant about. But, for all we know, he's just a scalper doing a bait-and-switch game.

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eeek

I wonder how many permits he has if a loss $1.50 each is bad enough to need to rant about. But, for all we know, he's just a scalper doing a bait-and-switch game.

here's your answer

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/for/2425468684.html

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scotteo123
While you spend literally ALL DAY on Craigslist and then championing your triumphs (5 REMOVED!!!) on this blog, you've taken down my posting several times to offer my permits for face value.

Then you should stop putting them up anymore and there'll be no problem.

Quote

It's actually pathetic....

It is, but we'll forgive you.

Resale of this permit is a violation of Title 36, Code of Federal Regulations, section 1.6.

Funny thing, there's nothing there that says it is okay to sell permits for $1.50.

"It's actually pathetic, you spend all your time on a computer (NOT outdoors)"

Oh, contrare! I am a very responsible skinner I mean flagger I only flag after:

I have worked outdoors for 7 hours

Exercised for 2hrs (one hour of it outdoors)

Checked on the status of my second job

Finished administrative work for my business

Eat supper

Read

skin flag

Which puts it around Midnight.


I cannot speak for the hunters spotters who find the ads (I think its called a day job -- a real one with a paycheck)

---

The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2011 09:00PM by Bee.

I get paid for being on a compooper.

So blow me.

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Why don't you go out and get a real job instead of being a loser scalper?

I find this "all day" meme amusing...wonder if one of you scalpers decided to spread it amongst the rest.

The people doing the Real Work post links. When I see New Posts I right-click-open-in-new-tab all of them (takes about a minute), then read them and (usually) click the 'flag' link, close the tab (a few seconds per post) and move on. Hate to burst your bubble, but for the rest of us it's pretty much an assembly line.

Eh. Why does this person care what I choose to spend my days doing or not doing? How does s/he know how much free time I have, how much time I spend doing something that s/he thinks is worthwhile, etc.? And what makes hir think I care what s/he thinks of me?

I'm comfortable with my flagging decisions. I've weighed the information I am given, and I decide whether it complies with the rules or not. I am comfortable with the amount of time I spend flagging, as well as the many and varied other things I spend my time doing.

It's a fallacy of argument. And a weak one at that.

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itchbay
Eh. Why does this person care what I choose to spend my days doing or not doing?

It's just someone that is trying to put us down for flagging his scalping attempts.

Oh, yeah. I got that. It just always makes me laugh when people try to pass judgment. Like I'm upset that someone I don't like doesn't like me. I got over that crap in 7th grade.

Summarized: OH BOOHOOHOO, YOU WON'T LET ME BREAK THE LAWWWWWW, MEAN PEOPLE!



Want some cheese and crackers to go with the whine?

Isn't the US supposed to be a capitalist country obsessed with free market?
Why not to sell a portion of permits at a market price?
Why airlines, hotels and other enterprises are allowed to adjust their prices hourly but not National Parks?

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Yury
Isn't the US supposed to be a capitalist country obsessed with free market?
Why not to sell a portion of permits at a market price?
Why airlines, hotels and other enterprises are allowed to adjust their prices hourly but not National Parks?

Spoken like a true Canadian



It's a brilliant solution though:

Half a Dome:
Prix Fixe - $4999.99

For that you get:
- One summit attempt your day of a choosing
- One litre of Merced Riva Wawa
- One Choc-o-lot Mint upon successful summitation
- One picture of you on da Cables

It would solve the overcrowding problem.

Now... what to do with US prisons?

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Yury
Isn't the US supposed to be a capitalist country obsessed with free market?
Why not to sell a portion of permits at a market price?
Why airlines, hotels and other enterprises are allowed to adjust their prices hourly but not National Parks?

National Parks are public property. We own it already. We pay taxes to support it. The concessionaire makes a hefty sum selling food, souvenirs, etc. but the actual property is owned by we the people, and paying $$$$ on top of taxes to use it - no thanks.

Airlines own their planes, hotels own their buildings, so they get to charge whatever they like. The gov'ment works for us to maintain our lands - they don't get to force us to pay big bucks to use it.

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AlmostThere
National Parks are public property. We own it already. We pay taxes to support it. The concessionaire makes a hefty sum selling food, souvenirs, etc. but the actual property is owned by we the people, and paying $$$$ on top of taxes to use it - no thanks.

In reality you do not own/control this property - government bureaucrats do.

I was born and raised in the USSR where government used such demagogy rather extensively.
In the USSR a lot of goods and services were rather cheap - the only problem was that to get them you needed a high rank, connections or bribes.

Californians may be kind of OK with the existing system, but for a person from the East Coast who needs to pay at least $1500 for a flight, rental car and motels the current system based on $1.50 price is a big pain.

Why not to preserve e.g. 30% of $1.50 permits for Californians to enjoy and set up a market driven price for remaining 70%?

Do you really believe that the current system is fair for a person who does not have a permit?
Do you really believe that the overall level of happiness would decrease in case of $50 Half Dome permit price tag?

Quote
Yury
Californians may be kind of OK with the existing system, but for a person from the East Coast who needs to pay at least $1500 for a flight, rental car and motels the current system based on $1.50 price is a big pain.

Why not to preserve e.g. 30% of $1.50 permits for Californians to enjoy and set up a market driven price for remaining 70%?

Do you really believe that the current system is fair for a person who does not have a permit?
Do you really believe that the overall level of happiness would decrease in case of $50 Half Dome permit price tag?

Okay, here is my whole beef with this issue: Half Dome permits do not ruin a vacation. If you are coming to Yosemite ENTIRELY BECAUSE you are wanting to do Half Dome you are missing out!

What ruins the vacation is the attitude that you MUST do Half Dome or the vacation is ruined.

Wilderness permits in Yosemite are reserved for months in advance, and have been so for a long time. Sometimes when you get to the park, conditions do not allow people to backpack. Too much snow, a forest fire, a trail closure. Do they whine and moan and wail? Post endless complaints? NO. They get a permit for somewhere else and backpack anyway. Locals do this, travelers do this, we all have a fine time backpacking. There are some awesome destinations for backpackers and it would be easy to lock yourself into the attitude that YOU MUST SEE Thousand Island Lake, or YOU MUST SEE Clouds Rest, or whatever, but we backpackers do something else and it is somehow awesome just the same.

I believe that FAIR would be to tear the cables down and abolish permits, and give the public at large equal opportunity to go up the rock just the same as they have opportunity to go up any other class 3 rock face in the park. You can learn to climb, you can hire mountaineers to carry you up the dome, you can just try to walk up it - whatever you like. There are no permits for climbing any other rock in the park, no fees involved.

The rules and permits are there BECAUSE people have made it dangerous to have unrestricted access to the cables. If you want to do away with the permits, you are thinking wrong. I think that it is a good thing to have some sort of barrier restricting access to a set of cables that are dangerous when there are 500+ people trying to go up and down them all at the same time. If that's a permit, fine. If it's no cables at all, fine - climb the rock as you will or won't do, at your own risk, when you're not connected to a bunch of other people when you're wibbling around, stalling, jerking the cables, or just being dumb.

Market driven prices? Seriously? NO. Take the $%^# cables down first. You can pay a mountaineering school the market driven prices for helping you up the rock.

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Yury

Quote
AlmostThere
National Parks are public property. We own it already. We pay taxes to support it. The concessionaire makes a hefty sum selling food, souvenirs, etc. but the actual property is owned by we the people, and paying $$$$ on top of taxes to use it - no thanks.

In reality you do not own/control this property - government bureaucrats do.

I was born and raised in the USSR where government used such demagogy rather extensively.
In the USSR a lot of goods and services were rather cheap - the only problem was that to get them you needed a high rank, connections or bribes.

Californians may be kind of OK with the existing system, but for a person from the East Coast who needs to pay at least $1500 for a flight, rental car and motels the current system based on $1.50 price is a big pain.

Why not to preserve e.g. 30% of $1.50 permits for Californians to enjoy and set up a market driven price for remaining 70%?

Do you really believe that the current system is fair for a person who does not have a permit?
Do you really believe that the overall level of happiness would decrease in case of $50 Half Dome permit price tag?

Everyone agrees that the current system is flawed and needs to be changed.

However, I seem to get the notion that you simply want all government controlled lands to create a market for their hikes, entrance fees, campsites, etc. in addition to the money we already pay in taxes to support those lands.

Where you go wrong is that you fail to understand that National parks are not corporations. It doesn't matter what you think is "reality" because the facts are that they manage those lands using TAXPAYERS dollars.

California has various national parks similar to how the people of Tennessee and North Carolina can enjoy the Great Smoky Mountains at close proximity. There are great national parks all over the country and what may seem like an advantage to one, is a disadvantage to the other.

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sactown23
Where you go wrong is that you fail to understand that National parks are not corporations. It doesn't matter what you think is "reality" because the facts are that they manage those lands using TAXPAYERS dollars.

"Where you go wrong is that fail to understand that National parks ... manage those lands using TAXPAYERS dollars" and other fees.
My question is about the best approach to set these fees to make as many people happy as possible.

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Yury

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sactown23
Where you go wrong is that you fail to understand that National parks are not corporations. It doesn't matter what you think is "reality" because the facts are that they manage those lands using TAXPAYERS dollars.

"Where you go wrong is that fail to understand that National parks ... manage those lands using TAXPAYERS dollars" and other fees.
My question is about the best approach to set these fees to make as many people happy as possible.

So in addition to having no clue about how the parks work (being in California has nothing to do with how Yosemite is operated, for example) you imagine that making people happy is the real goal?

I'm glad the park isn't managed by people like you - there'd be a lot more than 20 people dead on the dome.

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sactown23
However, I seem to get the notion that you simply want all government controlled lands to create a market for their hikes, entrance fees, campsites, etc. in addition to the money we already pay in taxes to support those lands.

Where you go wrong is that you fail to understand that National parks are not corporations. It doesn't matter what you think is "reality" because the facts are that they manage those lands using TAXPAYERS dollars.

I think it all depends on the individual situation. The Forest Service and BLM manage lands using taxpayer money. They issue leases and claims for private interests that include timber and mining companies. A few companies even operate on NPS land that aren't in the visitor services industry.

However - I do agree that a campground reservation or HD permit are a totally different beast. There are clear rules that they are not to be resold at any price. Their operations are heavily subsidized for the public interest and weren't meant to be a commodity.

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Yury
Why not to sell a portion of permits at a market price?

What is the for reason the "market price" being so high?

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eeek

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Yury
Why not to sell a portion of permits at a market price?

What is the for reason the "market price" being so high?

So the people with the most money win?

That's SO FAIR! Only people with money get to go!

Your frustration is misguided - As I see it, this whole issue is a process - Most of the people if not all who are flagging CL including myself have contacted the YNP (multiple times) and shared ways to try to get through to them regarding the scalping issue - Your suggestions only scratch the surface. The current non enforcement policy the Park follows is really immoral in my opinion and is most likely affected by budget cuts and the combined government attitude of apathy/red tape/political backstabbing and incompetence that is pervasive in the public sector.

What accomplishes change is grassroots protest with action - Many have expressed concerns and made recommendations to the powers that be with no results - The flagging process protects the overall ideals of providing an equal opportunity to all citizens who wish to enjoy the park free from those that want to make this a profit making machine - National Parks were not set aside for free enterprise but is preserved treasure of the people, by the people and for the people.

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SoCalCPA
The flagging process protects the overall ideals of providing an equal opportunity to all citizens who wish to enjoy the park free from those that want to make this a profit making machine - National Parks were not set aside for free enterprise but is preserved treasure of the people, by the people and for the people.

Am I correct that you major concern is about businesses or NPS making/not making profit and not about the quality of services people receive?

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SoCalCPA
… treasure of the people, by the people and for the people.

These words sound familiar.
I am not sure whether the USSR government borrowed this phrase from the US government or vice versa.

@Yury

The quality of Yosemite National Park is timeless and fixed.

The quote is from Abraham Lincoln and was taken from the Gettysburg Address - This speech honored those who gave there lives in this, the bloodiest battle of the civil war to preserve the ideals for which this country stands.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2011 12:33PM by SoCalCPA.

To the reply about the $1.50 permit not being fair to someone from the East Coast, I'm not sure how it's any less fair than it is to someone on the West Coast. Everyone who buys his permit legally gets it the same way. In talking to the superintendent of the park, he suggested we could see some first-come first-serve permits for 2012 and beyond, which I think is a great idea. I would hope they would be for the next day though, as I could never imagine beginning the Half Dome hike after 11:00AM, or even 9:00AM.

Quote
mbear
To the reply about the $1.50 permit not being fair to someone from the East Coast, I'm not sure how it's any less fair than it is to someone on the West Coast. Everyone who buys his permit legally gets it the same way. In talking to the superintendent of the park, he suggested we could see some first-come first-serve permits for 2012 and beyond, which I think is a great idea. I would hope they would be for the next day though, as I could never imagine beginning the Half Dome hike after 11:00AM, or even 9:00AM.

We started at midnight. That's better. No crowds, and you can't see the litter just off the trail until you shine your headlamp on it.

I think if they do first come/first serve it will get us just as many frustrated people as the current system. But at least they could hand out a list of suggestions of what to do instead.

Can you expand a bit on the frustration for having FCFS permits, AlmostThere? Would you be worried about them giving the permit same-day? I certainly think that would be a horrible idea. I guess one unintended consequence would be that private tour companies would have a huge leg up, being able to send employees to go wait in line. Not that I have a problem with private tour companies leading hikes. Some people are inexperienced enough that they want/need someone who knows the area well to help them, and I certainly plan to use guides for a couple of trips (outside Yosemite) that involve things like glacier travel that I'm not comfortable with on my own. I guess you'd have to have some kind of regulation with some teeth in it to prevent tour companies from taking some of the FCFS permits.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2011 10:37AM by mbear.

Quote
mbear
Can you expand a bit on the frustration for having FCFS permits, AlmostThere? Would you be worried about them giving the permit same-day? I certainly think that would be a horrible idea. I guess one unintended consequence would be that private tour companies would have a huge leg up, being able to send employees to go wait in line. Not that I have a problem with private tour companies leading hikes. Some people are inexperienced enough that they want/need someone who knows the area well to help them, and I certainly plan to use guides for a couple of trips (outside Yosemite) that involve things like glacier travel that I'm not comfortable with on my own. I guess you'd have to have some kind of regulation with some teeth in it to prevent tour companies from taking some of the FCFS permits.

If they run the permits for Half Dome the way they do the wilderness permits for backpacking, tour companies have no real advantage whatsoever. Everyone competes for the same permits.

There will always be frustrated people because there are way more people who want to go than there are permits. It's not going to matter if it's the same day or the day before. There will be a ton of people who don't get the permit they want, to hang around til next day and try again, or (hopefully) go see Bunnell Cascade, or climb one of the other domes, or hike the Pohono to the valley floor, or any of the umpty zillion other things there are to do.

I'm actually wondering if the permitting will lead to more people going up regardless of the weather - forget safety, I have to go, I have a permit! Must use it! That would be frustrating to the rangers - wonder if they would move the ranger to the bottom of the subdome and stop people going up there at all? I hope so. It's not worth dying for.

Half Dome was pretty notorious for people ignoring the weather way before the permit system was in effect though. Maybe with every permit people should have to watch the video about the hikers who got electrocuted on the summit years ago when they decided to go up the cables with storm clouds around.

Half Dome Denial is pretty fierce. I 'spect they wouldn't pay attention if the surviving guys showed up to answer questions and show off their lasting physical impediments that resulted from the event.

Maybe I'm in a bad mood or whatever.

But honestly I'm really sick of the whining about Half Dome.

I really think some people need to read my book:
"How I Learned to Stop Whining and Love Half Dome"

To me it would be like a Whitney Forum saying "Whitney Sucks. Don't do it. There's so much other stuff in The Sierra dumbasses."

Signed,
(ProbablyAteSomeRabidMarmut)

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I love Half Dome!

It's great to look at it from all the other parts of the park! And from Turlock, too, apparently.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2011 11:48AM by AlmostThere.

I like it, too. I like how people are drawn to it like a magnet and stay off the other summits. You all can have half dome with the kerjillion others. I'll wave from my empty summit with a better view a few miles away.

In all honesty I wish they would cut the darn cables and let the dome be.

I've whined A LOT about "There is more to Yosemite than Half Dome" in the past
and that there's a LOT more to Yosemite than the Valley.

Main thing though is I respect people's desire to get atop the Dome.
It's so Iconic. I prefer to not rain on their parade. That's all.

On many an occasion we've been in view of the cables and seen the stream
of ants on it... invariably we say "glad we are where we are".

Thanks for listening. Have a nice day

Signed
Grumpy

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2011 02:12PM by chick-on.

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chick-on
In all honesty I wish they would cut the darn cables and let the dome be.

Wasn't the Firefall stopped because a) it wasn't natural and b) it was causing large, unwanted crowds? Just sayin...

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Vince

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chick-on
In all honesty I wish they would cut the darn cables and let the dome be.

Wasn't the Firefall stopped because a) it wasn't natural and b) it was causing large, unwanted crowds? Just sayin...

My sentiments exactly!

The first time I went to Yosemite I had never even been there. Being about 13, and from Ohio, the only reason I went was due to being brought by my father and uncles. The first time I went, the first thing that caught my eye were El Cap and Half Dome. At that time I didn't even realize you were allowed, or able, to go to the top of them. Once I found out you could, I planned on doing it for years. It was the focus of my road trip I took across the U.S. with my friends in 2007. I went to the top, and I loved it. That said, I've since learned that there are other parts of the park, having branched out my activities in subsequent visits, that I love. However, I don't know that I would have ever been able to fully immerse myself in those other parts if I had never done Half Dome, because I probably wouldn't have planned a trip to Yosemite without its presence. In other words, during my days of ignorance regarding the other aspects of the park, if I had known ahead of time that I couldn't go up Half Dome, such is the case with permits being gone/scalped currently, I might not have gone at all.

Because of this, I think first come, first serve in-person permits would be the best solution. People can still plan their vacations to do Half Dome, won't have to worry about the money aspect of it, and if they get there after the permits are gone for the next day they'll at least already be at the park, and will be compelled to explore the many other wonders of it to avoid a wasted trip- and they'll be glad they did branch out and do/see other things.

Long rambling short- I'm glad that Half Dome is highly accessible. I'd be upset if other people who were introduced to Yosemite at a young age, dreamed about getting to the top for years, and then were never able. What would make me even more angry is if they were never able to get to the top due to money being the deterrent. Also, Half Dome is a powerful beacon and gateway. It drew me, and many others, to the park. I don't want to see people, ignorant to the other splendors of the park, miss out on Yosemite because they decide not to visit when their chance to get to the top of Half Dome is doomed before they even get to the park.


Sorry for the rambling. Hard thought process to get across through text.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2011 02:37PM by dqniel.

I know this is the first year for full-time permits but last year permits were required on weekends. Do you Half Dome Naysayers ;-), perceive the weekends last year to still be overcrowded? Or did the permit system solve the over-crowding problem? One of the arguments I heard for full week permits was that the Weekenders were pushed to the Weekdays.

Chick-On hit the nail on the head with the reference to Half Dome as iconic. I was born and raised in Fresno. I have been to Yosemite dozens of times. I started doing trails such as Nevada and Vernal Falls by myself or with my sister at a very young age. But I always dreamed of doing Half Dome. Leaving Fresno many years ago I still try and do an annual trip to Yosemite but it doesn't always happen. And some of the best moments were completing the 4 mile trail and Yosemite Falls hikes with my family and young boys. Even then I told my boys that those hikes were "training hikes" for one day doing Half Dome. But it wasn't until this year that I finally put a good plan together where I could take time from my family and do my Tenaya Lake/Clouds Rest/Half Dome hike. I hope to use my trip as a "scouting trip" to take the boys in later years.

This is a huge trip for us. And it would have been bitterly disappointing if I would not have been able to secure the Half Dome permits. Even now, factors such as weather on the day planned could keep me from Half Dome. But to be very honest I've already invested a lot of money in this trip. If I wouldn't have got the permit I have to admit that I may have been willing to buy from a scalper. The marginal cost to my overall trip would have been insignificant. And I don't have the ability to plan this type of trip very often to adopt "well I can just do it next time".

Thanks for the perspective guys.

We went up Aug 27th last year. Hardly anyone on the cables.

Posted this afterwards:
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,28381,28427#msg-28427

For me: Everything is The Old Dude's fault.

Would have been to Yosemite maybe twice if the old fart hadn't
gotten us into backpacking. And for that I am forever greatful.

I hope you have many memorable trips
Regards,

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chick-on
For me: Everything is The Old Dude's fault.

It's good to see you've stopped blaming the marmots.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the $1.50 fee for a permit for Half Dome was for administrative costs and therefore it is not like buying a ticket for a movie or plane fare where fair market price can be considered.

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parklover
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the $1.50 fee for a permit for Half Dome was for administrative costs and therefore it is not like buying a ticket for a movie or plane fare where fair market price can be considered.

It's actually to pay the reservation service company.

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eeek

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parklover
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the $1.50 fee for a permit for Half Dome was for administrative costs and therefore it is not like buying a ticket for a movie or plane fare where fair market price can be considered.

It's actually to pay the reservation service company.

Is part of it to pay for printing up the permits and the cost of mailing them out?

Of course I'm thinking the overhead for the FCFS wilderness permits are probably handled by NPS. I thought that the $5 reservation fee (at the time) might have paid for the couple (they messed up the date and I had it changed) of confirmation letters I got.

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y_p_w
Is part of it to pay for printing up the permits and the cost of mailing them out?

Do they mail them?

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eeek

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y_p_w
Is part of it to pay for printing up the permits and the cost of mailing them out?

Do they mail them?

I had mine mailed to me last year... although I recall some posts with someone having troubles printing them out.

http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,27905,27919#msg-27919

Sorta maybe not so funny... but I had extras and no one wanted them last year.
(oopsie)
In my defense I did use one... and no one else wanted to go... and there was no way to
return them otherwise I would have...

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eeek

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y_p_w
Is part of it to pay for printing up the permits and the cost of mailing them out?

Do they mail them?

I thought they were mailed out. At least from the pictures we saw. I suppose the system could change.

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parklover
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the $1.50 fee for a permit for Half Dome was for administrative costs and therefore it is not like buying a ticket for a movie or plane fare where fair market price can be considered.

That's your service fee since there is no standard fee to skim off of to pay the service provider. Think of it as if TicketMaster (which used to own ReserveAmerica) were to provide a free tickets on their service, but received a small fee to cover their cost of doing business (and maybe a small profit).

The other thing is that typical event tickets might state that the seller doesn't allow them to be resold higher than face value, with the caveat that the event organizer can reject admission and/or sue to recover anything paid above face value. However - many state laws render such language legally unenforceable. I don't believe states can dictate those terms to the feds, and in any case the prohibition is against the resale of reservations/permits at any price.

Still - I would think there are a few cases where it might run into a gray area of what's "resale". I could imagine someone asks a friend to help book a campsite because of better computer access or for whatever reason. The reserver uses his own credit card/account and matches it to his address, but then transfers the reservation at a later time. Is that really resale if there wasn't some sort of offer to resell. Or that church-affiliated organization where apparently volunteers grabbed dozens of sites at Upper Pines. I suppose they could be doing it out of the goodness of their hearts and donated the reservation to the group. If a group agrees ahead of time that they're splitting the fees for Half Dome permits or a campground, I don't consider that resale. Or if someone brings a friend along on a camping trip and offers to pay for a share of the campsite fee. I think it takes some sort of intent to make a permit/reservation available to the public.