Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile Recent Posts
Tenaya Lake, Yosemite National Park

The Moon is Waxing Crescent (9% of Full)


Advanced

Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'

All posts are those of the individual authors and the owner of this site does not endorse them. Content should be considered opinion and not fact until verified independently.

New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 23, 2011 11:26PM
http://www.mercurynews.com/science/ci_18539564



New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'

By Paul Rogers
progers@mercurynews.com
Posted: 07/23/2011 10:34:01 PM PDT

YOSEMITE NATIONAL PARK -- Ah, the sounds of Yosemite Valley. Birds tweeting. Waterfalls crashing. Chain saws whirring?
In a move that highlights the often-conflicting mission of America's national park system -- to protect spectacular landscapes and to provide public recreation -- officials at Yosemite National Park are proposing to cut down hundreds, perhaps thousands, of trees in Yosemite Valley as part of an effort to improve the views of the park's famed waterfalls and soaring granite walls.....

(edited to represent fair use)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2011 04:38AM by Frank Furter.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 12:10AM
This is very good news, as long as they do it the right way. And it does appears that they are planning to remove the offending trees in an environmentally sound manner.

Hope they included removing that pine tree that's obstructing the classic view of Yosemite Falls from Union Point as part of the plan.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 12:36AM
"Offending" is an unusual choice of word to apply to a tree.

Plenty of things offend me, like people in El Monte RV's, but the poor thing ain't trying to bother nobody, it's just sitting there growing. It ain't running no stinking generator, it's quietly generating sweet O2.

I understand the underlying sentiment, a quick shave is better than a death of one thousand cuts. I ain't no tree-hugging forest lover, but when they get in the way of my shots, that's just a good excuse to hike up a little higher, a motivation I can usually use.

If I have to choose sides, I usually root for the underdog. Go Trees!
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 04:54AM
This is a slippery slope. Does restoration of historic views include dredging Mirror Lake and re-instituting the Firefall? Hopefully, there is a healthy amount of skepticism among those overseeing this proposal as frequently the heavy hand of well-intentioned human activity turns out to have unintended consequences. The tendency is to ask, what would John Muir advise?



The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 12:57AM
Good news for this person and photographer. For a few years before they cut the Tunnel View and Valley View trees I argued on various web boards for removing trees at those two locations. Generally the immediate reaction of most other posters was one of condemnation bolstered with predictable simple arguments that were easily dismantled. I was hoping authorities in the park were lurking. Then the park announced detailed plans to upgrade those scenic viewpoint that included cutting trees and the debate became more heated though plans still moved ahead. Upon completion of those projects at the two heavily used viewpoints, the general response from the public has been positive including that from photographers.

It is good to read the Sierra Club supports these new actions. My expectation is one of the areas that will be thinned is a small section of forest east of Bridalveil Meadow that increasingly blocks views of Bridalveil Falls from Valley View. Can't guess where else they might be talking about within the valley itself and maybe most is outside the valley along highway scenic pullouts. There are lots of young lodgepole pine that have grown up along SR120 in Tuolumne Meadows opposite the store and campground areas that I know has been under consideration over a few years. When SR140 between El Portal and the valley was upgraded a few years back in the Merced Gorge, they built a number of nicely paved pullouts along that route. Along the route are several spectacular whitewater river sections during spring and early summer flows. However views of most are rather blocked by young trees that have grown up during recent decades between highway and river such that the public rather ignores gorge pullouts.

David
http://www.davidsenesac.com
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 02:33AM
I would just be happy for them restoring the major "historic views" that made Yosemite famous and worthy for being the very first piece of land set aside by the federal government for its intrinsic beauty. As I mentioned above, the views from Union Point are in need of some restoration. In fact, the Park Service during the past year has actually restored the spur trail to Union Point, including reinstalling the trail sign at its junction with the Four Mile Trail. So hopefully, the full restoration of that classic view is already on their master list of restoration projects.

And while they're in the general vicinity of Union Point, maybe they could reestablish an accessible viewpoint for Agassiz Column, though that would probably be a much bigger undertaking.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 07:03AM
I would think that gluing all the rockfalls back into place would be part of this process to restore "historic views."

Trees grow. Rocks fall. Meadows turn into forests. The earth naturally evolves.

It seems that the people most adament in attempting to arrest time are those that either can't adapt or have an economic interest.

(Added note: on the other hand, I've heard someone object to removing the HD cables because they are "historic." Presumably one could also apply this arguement to the dam in Hetch Hetchy.)
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 09:28AM
Quote
szalkowski

It seems that the people most adament in attempting to arrest time are those that either can't adapt or have an economic interest.

The California State Park Department has been pretty good at arresting time at Bodie State Park. wink
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 08:15AM
Me thinks this has a lot to do with the fact that the trees around the Awahnee are blocking views from the rooms and the back patio/grass area..........
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 09:14AM
Unless they're invasive species, and these are not, then keep them. I take a billion pictures when I go to any park, but my photo seeking behavior shouldn't come before natural evolution of the forests and meadows.



http://www.flickr.com/photos/dqniel/
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 09:15AM
Quote
dqniel
Unless they're invasive species, and these are not, then keep them. I take a billion pictures when I go to any park, but my photo seeking behavior shouldn't come before natural evolution of the forests and meadows.
That's my point; much of this is not a natural progression but a human caused one.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 03:02PM
Quote
Dave
Quote
dqniel
Unless they're invasive species, and these are not, then keep them. I take a billion pictures when I go to any park, but my photo seeking behavior shouldn't come before natural evolution of the forests and meadows.
That's my point; much of this is not a natural progression but a human caused one.

If that's the case, then sure- get rid of them. They just have to be very careful in knowing that it's truly the case.



http://www.flickr.com/photos/dqniel/
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 04:25PM
Quote
dqniel
Quote
Dave
Quote
dqniel
Unless they're invasive species, and these are not, then keep them. I take a billion pictures when I go to any park, but my photo seeking behavior shouldn't come before natural evolution of the forests and meadows.
That's my point; much of this is not a natural progression but a human caused one.

If that's the case, then sure- get rid of them. They just have to be very careful in knowing that it's truly the case.

Natural evolution? There's human impacts on the evolution of forests, meadows, beaches, lakes, etc. all the time as handled and eventually maintained by the National Park Service. You think the Ahwhanee Hotel got there all by itself? Did the Upper Yosemite Fall Trail get formed by wild animals? Does trail maintenance affect what happens with the natural vegetation that normally grows? There's a dam that's raised the height of Jackson Lake about 15 ft, and that dam has been maintained and upgraded over the years. I've seen areas in Yellowstone and Sequoia NP where a building has been torn down, and the NPS tried to guide how the area "repaired" itself.

The Yosemite area has hardly been purely natural for centuries. It bears the mark of human impacts. We've got roads going right through what used to be forest. Many trails were a result of felled trees. I'm sure that trees were cleared to build most of the campgrounds in Yosemite. We have to understand ecosystems and not individuals. I don't see cutting down a few trees here or there to be a violation of what Yosemite is supposed to be. It does however have to be judicious.

Here's an interesting discussion:

http://www.nps.gov/yose/photosmultimedia/yv3-scenicvistas-transcript.htm
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 04:52PM
Quote
y_p_w
Natural evolution? There's human impacts on the evolution of forests, meadows, beaches, lakes, etc. all the time as handled and eventually maintained by the National Park Service. You think the Ahwhanee Hotel got there all by itself? Did the Upper Yosemite Fall Trail get formed by wild animals? Does trail maintenance affect what happens with the natural vegetation that normally grows? There's a dam that's raised the height of Jackson Lake about 15 ft, and that dam has been maintained and upgraded over the years. I've seen areas in Yellowstone and Sequoia NP where a building has been torn down, and the NPS tried to guide how the area "repaired" itself.
"The Dam" at the 120/140 junction is a perfect example. The Old Yosemite Village is another. All that's left there are a few exotic trees.
Quote

The Yosemite area has hardly been purely natural for centuries. It bears the mark of human impacts.
No one is suggesting that we go back to some "purely natural" state. The human impact in the Valley go back thousands of years.
Quote

We've got roads going right through what used to be forest. Many trails were a result of felled trees. I'm sure that trees were cleared to build most of the campgrounds in Yosemite. We have to understand ecosystems and not individuals. I don't see cutting down a few trees here or there to be a violation of what Yosemite is supposed to be. It does however have to be judicious.
Going back in time a bit is not a bad thing. Maybe the pizza/beer parlor can go next?
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 25, 2011 01:47PM
Quote
Dave
Quote
y_p_w
We've got roads going right through what used to be forest. Many trails were a result of felled trees. I'm sure that trees were cleared to build most of the campgrounds in Yosemite. We have to understand ecosystems and not individuals. I don't see cutting down a few trees here or there to be a violation of what Yosemite is supposed to be. It does however have to be judicious.
Going back in time a bit is not a bad thing. Maybe the pizza/beer parlor can go next?

The beer stays. smileys with beer
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 25, 2011 11:46AM
Quote
y_p_w
Quote
dqniel
Quote
Dave
Quote
dqniel
Unless they're invasive species, and these are not, then keep them. I take a billion pictures when I go to any park, but my photo seeking behavior shouldn't come before natural evolution of the forests and meadows.
That's my point; much of this is not a natural progression but a human caused one.

If that's the case, then sure- get rid of them. They just have to be very careful in knowing that it's truly the case.

Natural evolution? There's human impacts on the evolution of forests, meadows, beaches, lakes, etc. all the time as handled and eventually maintained by the National Park Service. You think the Ahwhanee Hotel got there all by itself? Did the Upper Yosemite Fall Trail get formed by wild animals? Does trail maintenance affect what happens with the natural vegetation that normally grows? There's a dam that's raised the height of Jackson Lake about 15 ft, and that dam has been maintained and upgraded over the years. I've seen areas in Yellowstone and Sequoia NP where a building has been torn down, and the NPS tried to guide how the area "repaired" itself.

The Yosemite area has hardly been purely natural for centuries. It bears the mark of human impacts. We've got roads going right through what used to be forest. Many trails were a result of felled trees. I'm sure that trees were cleared to build most of the campgrounds in Yosemite. We have to understand ecosystems and not individuals. I don't see cutting down a few trees here or there to be a violation of what Yosemite is supposed to be. It does however have to be judicious.

Here's an interesting discussion:

http://www.nps.gov/yose/photosmultimedia/yv3-scenicvistas-transcript.htm

I'm not debating any of the things you've said, but I don't think I understand your point. It seems like you're trying to argue something I've said, but at the same time I don't disagree with anything you've said. I think that if steps can be taken to restore/protect natural evolution of our protected sites that they should be taken. It seems you think the same thing. We also both acknowledge that many aspects of Yosemite, and other parks, already show the telltale signs of human involvement. Finding the balance between preserving/ restoring and photographing/experiencing is difficult. I guess it's just fortunate that in this situation, it seems the destruction of carefully selected trees serves both restoration and photographing/experiencing.



http://www.flickr.com/photos/dqniel/
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 25, 2011 01:58PM
Quote
dqniel
I'm not debating any of the things you've said, but I don't think I understand your point. It seems like you're trying to argue something I've said, but at the same time I don't disagree with anything you've said. I think that if steps can be taken to restore/protect natural evolution of our protected sites that they should be taken. It seems you think the same thing. We also both acknowledge that many aspects of Yosemite, and other parks, already show the telltale signs of human involvement. Finding the balance between preserving/ restoring and photographing/experiencing is difficult. I guess it's just fortunate that in this situation, it seems the destruction of carefully selected trees serves both restoration and photographing/experiencing.

I don't believe that "natural evolution" is the ideal. We live in a world where human impacts can't be undone, and humans have to guide the evolution along. Meaningful natural evolution would require a largely undisturbed ecosystem that extends beyond the limits of Yosemite. Like it or not, we play favorites. For instance, the former superintendent at Point Reyes NS (now in charge of Yosemite) Don Neubacher ordered the shooting of non-native axis and fallow deer. There are eradication programs for non-native species as done by the NPS, and I've actually participated in that for a couple of hours. Yosemite Valley wasn't as heavy with vegetation when the first Europeans set foot.

There's a whole lot to Yosemite, and I have no problems if a tree is cut here, a road is built there, a sign is placed wherever. For obvious reasons, it's not going to happen everywhere, but it's not as if cutting down a single tree (or even hundreds) is unacceptable.

We certainly talk about protections, especially with Congressionally designated wilderness area. However - hunting is allowed in many of those wilderness areas under BLM and Forest Service management.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 09:14AM
Many of these trees have grown in historically treeless areas BECAUSE of human activities. Drive along Southside Drive, all those trees on the left shouldn't be there. The building of that road disturbed the water flow and allowed trees to grow in an area that was otherwise too wet. Just past Bridalveil Straight, the last pullout on the left, you can see a glacial moraine. In the spring, before being blasted the 1930's, caused a restriction in the flow of the Merced and that caused spring flooding for much of the Valley. THAT flooding is what kept the meadows tree free.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 09:31AM
Quote
Dave

Many of these trees have grown in historically treeless areas BECAUSE of human activities. Drive along Southside Drive, all those trees on the left shouldn't be there. The building of that road disturbed the water flow and allowed trees to grow in an area that was otherwise too wet. Just past Bridalveil Straight, the last pullout on the left, you can see a glacial moraine. In the spring, before being blasted the 1930's, caused a restriction in the flow of the Merced and that caused spring flooding for much of the Valley. THAT flooding is what kept the meadows tree free.

Question: did the blasting of the mini-moraine at Mirror lake helped speed up the sedimentation of Mirror Lake?
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 10:43AM
Quote
plawrence
Question: did the blasting of the mini-moraine at Mirror lake helped speed up the sedimentation of Mirror Lake?
I do not know about any blasting there. I'm not a park historian.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 09:34AM
Quote
Dave
Many of these trees have grown in historically treeless areas BECAUSE of human activities. Drive along Southside Drive, all those trees on the left shouldn't be there. The building of that road disturbed the water flow and allowed trees to grow in an area that was otherwise too wet. Just past Bridalveil Straight, the last pullout on the left, you can see a glacial moraine. In the spring, before being blasted the 1930's, caused a restriction in the flow of the Merced and that caused spring flooding for much of the Valley. THAT flooding is what kept the meadows tree free.

Interesting. I have always been a little suspicious of the "prevention of episodic fires in the valley" explanation.



The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 10:45AM
Quote
Frank Furter
Interesting. I have always been a little suspicious of the "prevention of episodic fires in the valley" explanation.
The natives living in the Valley did burn the meadows, but that was not what kept the trees out of the meadows. It was the seasonal flooding.
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 11:37AM
Quote
Dave
Quote
Frank Furter
Interesting. I have always been a little suspicious of the "prevention of episodic fires in the valley" explanation.
The natives living in the Valley did burn the meadows, but that was not what kept the trees out of the meadows. It was the seasonal flooding.
Conifers don't grow in meadows because it is too wet.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 11:58AM
Quote
hotrod4x5
Conifers don't grow in meadows because it is too wet.
Uh..... isn't that what I have been saying?
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 01:29PM
Quote
Dave
Quote
hotrod4x5
Conifers don't grow in meadows because it is too wet.
Uh..... isn't that what I have been saying?
Ya I guess. You said it was the seasonal flooding, and it's my understanding that it's the year round moisture content in the soil in the meadows. But I suppose you can assume that moisture is caused by the flooding, I dunno. confused smiley
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 01:58PM
Quote
hotrod4x5
Quote
Dave
Quote
hotrod4x5
Conifers don't grow in meadows because it is too wet.
Uh..... isn't that what I have been saying?
Ya I guess. You said it was the seasonal flooding, and it's my understanding that it's the year round moisture content in the soil in the meadows. But I suppose you can assume that moisture is caused by the flooding, I dunno. confused smiley


Rolling on floor laugh
MarmotMarmotMarmot
MarmotMarmotMarmotMarmot



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2011 01:59PM by szalkowski.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 12:05PM
Quote
hotrod4x5
Quote
Dave
Quote
Frank Furter
Interesting. I have always been a little suspicious of the "prevention of episodic fires in the valley" explanation.
The natives living in the Valley did burn the meadows, but that was not what kept the trees out of the meadows. It was the seasonal flooding.
Conifers don't grow in meadows because it is too wet.
The location of grasslands and forests is probably more complicated than just soil moisture. In Yellowstone NP, for example, the common explanation is the soil is too dense (due to accumulated fine lake sediments or types of glacial debris) to favor trees.



The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 09:37AM
Quote
Dave
Many of these trees have grown in historically treeless areas BECAUSE of human activities. Drive along Southside Drive, all those trees on the left shouldn't be there. The building of that road disturbed the water flow and allowed trees to grow in an area that was otherwise too wet. Just past Bridalveil Straight, the last pullout on the left, you can see a glacial moraine. In the spring, before being blasted the 1930's, caused a restriction in the flow of the Merced and that caused spring flooding for much of the Valley. THAT flooding is what kept the meadows tree free.


We vote for re-establishing the moraine rocky pile.
(Naturally Yours)
The Marmots
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 09:43AM
Quote
Dave
Many of these trees have grown in historically treeless areas BECAUSE of human activities. Drive along Southside Drive, all those trees on the left shouldn't be there. The building of that road disturbed the water flow and allowed trees to grow in an area that was otherwise too wet. Just past Bridalveil Straight, the last pullout on the left, you can see a glacial moraine. In the spring, before being blasted the 1930's, caused a restriction in the flow of the Merced and that caused spring flooding for much of the Valley. THAT flooding is what kept the meadows tree free.


It is looking a little snakey in there but that's how I like it.
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 10:19AM
I think this is a good idea. Look at historical paintings and photos of the valley, there were probably half as many conifers and a lot more meadows. The fires served a purpose that, unless they want to burn in the valley, only cutting of trees can make up for.
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 11:44AM
Holy CRAP do I want to be on the committee that makes decisions over which trees!

I can think of a few in places that photographers love that could use some trimming.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 24, 2011 02:09PM
I can't believe looking at old postcards when there was actually a view from the Vernal Fall footbridge.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 25, 2011 03:17PM
I still feel like you're attacking a straw man. I didn't say .anything contrary to what you've been saying.



http://www.flickr.com/photos/dqniel/
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 25, 2011 03:50PM
someone else mentioned the trees in question are native

if you see an alien species (like mimosa - a true weedy non-native tree) please cut it down. anywhere.
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 25, 2011 04:03PM
The public scoping for this plan ended last September so if you did not comment, you missed out on letting the park know your feelings. You can see this, old and current plans by going to www.nps.gov/yose and clicking on park management and then plans. You can also see Yosemite plans and other parks plans on the PERC site at http://parkplanning.nps.gov/publicHome.cfm
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 25, 2011 04:29PM
No comments about Mirror Lake? Why not resume dredging and perimeter vegetation removal to restore its prior glory?



The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 25, 2011 04:49PM
Quote
Frank Furter
No comments about Mirror Lake? Why not resume dredging and perimeter vegetation removal to restore its prior glory?
What's happening in Mirror Lake is a natural progression. What's happening in the meadows, and other places, are the result of human interference.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 25, 2011 06:08PM
Quote
Dave

Quote
Frank Furter
No comments about Mirror Lake? Why not resume dredging and perimeter vegetation removal to restore its prior glory?

What's happening in Mirror Lake is a natural progression. What's happening in the meadows, and other places, are the result of human interference.

I did a little research today about the formation of Mirror Lake. It appears that the present Mirror Lake wasn't formed by a glacier moraine dam, but instead by a dam created by some giant rockfalls from the surrounding cliffs.

Here's an excerpt of a USGS publication in regards to the formation of Mirror Lake:

Quote
USGS: POSTGLACIAL HISTORY OF THE YOSEMITE VALLEY

FILLING OF LAKES IN TENAYA CANYON

Although the steps in the floor of Tenaya Canyon are not especially clean-cut, their configuration nevertheless indicates or at least suggests the former existence of a glacially scooped lake basin on each tread. There were apparently four such lake basins in the stretch extending from the mouth of the canyon to the great step from which the Tenaya Cascade descends. The upper three were little more than ponds that must have been quickly filled, but the lowermost, near the mouth of the canyon, measured over a mile in length and probably was not filled until a long time after the glacier had withdrawn from the canyon.

Mirror Lake (pl. 47, A) might readily be supposed to be a remnant of this ancient lake—in fact, it is generally assumed to be of glacial origin, like most lakes in the High Sierra—but a scrutinizing study of it reveals that it is of relatively recent making and has had no connection whatever with the ice age. It is impounded wholly by masses of rock débris that fell in avalanches from both walls of the canyon, principally from a place on the west wall, just back of the Washington Column. West of the outlet of the lake, it is true, there is a small quantity of morainal débris, readily distinguishable from the angular avalanche material by the water—rounded and glacier—polished cobbles and pebbles which it contains; but there is no dam composed of such glacial material across the canyon.

The creation of Mirror Lake by obstructing rock avalanches was of course favored by the fact that the lower part of Tenaya Canyon already had a nearly level floor due to the previous filing of a glacial lake basin. Had the floor not been so nearly level, the low, irregular avalanche dam would not have backed up the water for any great distance.

The postglacial history of lower Tenaya Canyon may be summed up as follows: (1) A glacially gouged lake basin about a mile in length was filled by the forward growth of a delta built by Tenaya Creek; (2) great rock avalanches fell from the walls near the canyon mouth and impounded the water anew, forming Mirror Lake; (3) Tenaya Creek built a new delta, which, growing forward, is now reducing the size of Mirror Lake.

The relative recency of its creation therefore explains why little Mirror Lake is still in existence, whereas the large lake basin in the Yosemite Valley is completely filled. Mirror Lake itself, however, appears to be not far removed from extinction. The rate at which the delta at its head is encroaching upon it from year to year is sufficiently rapid to be discernible to the eye without the aid of precise measurements. Indeed, unless steps are taken to check the further growth of the delta, Mirror Lake will soon be reduced to a small, unimpressive pond, and the Yosemite region will lose one of its most valued scenic treasures.


So in other words, while the present day Mirror Lake is slowing dissolving into a meadow, a couple of more giant rockfalls at the right locations could easily create an even larger Mirror Lake in a not too distant future. So dredging might not be necessary after all wink
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 25, 2011 09:58PM
Quote
plawrence
So in other words, while the present day Mirror Lake is slowing dissolving into a meadow, a couple of more giant rockfalls at the right locations could easily create an even larger Mirror Lake in a not too distant future. So dredging might not be necessary after all wink
Has there been talk of dredging the lake? I haven't heard of any? Was this dredging mentioned in the latest plan?
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 25, 2011 10:23PM
I thought Mirror Lake had a man made damn at one time, to facilitate the ice making operation they had there.
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 26, 2011 11:30AM
Mirror Lake was dammed to make it bigger. You can still see some concrete from this effort among the rocks where this dam used to be. A long time ago I remember there being steel beams among these rocks, but I haven't seen them recently. I believe the dam was partially removed as part of the general restoration effort for this area.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 25, 2011 06:48PM
Quote
Dave
Quote
Frank Furter
No comments about Mirror Lake? Why not resume dredging and perimeter vegetation removal to restore its prior glory?
What's happening in Mirror Lake is a natural progression. What's happening in the meadows, and other places, are the result of human interference.

I assume Mirror Lake was named for the original condition which deteriorated in the early 1900's. I believe it used to be periodically dredged to maintain the "original" Mirror quality. The logic behind the tree removal at higher elevations is to restore historic views. Is there really any difference?



The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 25, 2011 09:54PM
Quote
Frank Furter
I assume Mirror Lake was named for the original condition which deteriorated in the early 1900's. I believe it used to be periodically dredged to maintain the "original" Mirror quality.
It is not being dredged now and there are know plans to do so.

Quote

The logic behind the tree removal at higher elevations is to restore historic views. Is there really any difference?
Yes. The trees blocking the views, and other areas, are there because we interfered with the ecosystem.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 26, 2011 01:51PM
Documents concerning the Scenic View Plan can be assessed at
http://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=347&projectID=23811&documentID=35583
The Environmental Assessment is the most detailed description.
The appendix which scored various sites for scenic impairment by a numerical score or VRA ( visual resource assessment lists the sites under consideration. Under plan #3, which apparently as been implemented, the first 93 will be rehabilitated.

What strikes me is the extent of consideration and detail that was applied to the problem of cutting down some trees.

There is also a useful list of non-native plants in the park.



The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 26, 2011 03:13PM
Quote
Frank Furter
Documents concerning the Scenic View Plan can be assessed at
http://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=347&projectID=23811&documentID=35583
The Environmental Assessment is the most detailed description.
The appendix which scored various sites for scenic impairment by a numerical score or VRA ( visual resource assessment lists the sites under consideration. Under plan #3, which apparently as been implemented, the first 93 will be rehabilitated.

What strikes me is the extent of consideration and detail that was applied to the problem of cutting down some trees.

There is also a useful list of non-native plants in the park.

Wow, that's 297 pages!

I was curious what is to be done with the cut trees, that is addressed on page 37. Nutshell suggestions: Cultural uses (such as traditional Indian uses for wood), lop and scatter (probably the most natural thing to do), chip and mulch (landscaping?), chip and haul (no way!), pile and burn (what for?), haul to woodlot (for campers, that's OK), contract for removal (no, better uses inside the park).
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 25, 2011 06:24PM
A little off topic but while they are at it I think they should remove the man made water diversion dam at the top of Nevada Falls.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 26, 2011 09:21AM
Quote
losthillsguy
A little off topic but while they are at it I think they should remove the man made water diversion dam at the top of Nevada Falls.

If they did that then the upper part of Mist trail would wash out every year you had high water.

That dam prevents water from going down the gully that Mist Trail goes up.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 26, 2011 03:16PM
Quote
qumqats
Quote
losthillsguy
A little off topic but while they are at it I think they should remove the man made water diversion dam at the top of Nevada Falls.

If they did that then the upper part of Mist trail would wash out every year you had high water.

That dam prevents water from going down the gully that Mist Trail goes up.

I understand that, the point is that it is man made only to "improve" the falls. The historical cascade to the north of Nevada Falls that is now dry is a more easily erodible path and would eventually take most of the water now going over Nevada Falls. I see the dam as white man messing with nature and it shouldn't be there.
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 26, 2011 06:02AM
We can't get the campgrounds rebuilt, so we can actually visit the park with our families, but we can cut down trees to take photos. WTF
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 26, 2011 07:19AM
Quote
Roadrash
We can't get the campgrounds rebuilt, so we can actually visit the park with our families, but we can cut down trees to take photos. WTF
What needs to be rebuilt at any of the campgrounds?
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 26, 2011 08:33AM
Quote
Dave
Quote
Roadrash
We can't get the campgrounds rebuilt, so we can actually visit the park with our families, but we can cut down trees to take photos. WTF
What needs to be rebuilt at any of the campgrounds?
He's talking about the upper and lower river CG's that were washed away in 1997 flood.

People still cry about those. If it hasn't been done by now, it never will.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 26, 2011 11:35AM
Quote
hotrod4x5
He's talking about the upper and lower river CG's that were washed away in 1997 flood.

People still cry about those. If it hasn't been done by now, it never will.[/quote]There never was a plan to restore those campgrounds. They could spend some more time trying to restore the area to something close to pre-white-man-settlement condition though.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2011 11:36AM by Dave.
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 26, 2011 10:34AM
Quote
Roadrash
We can't get the campgrounds rebuilt, so we can actually visit the park with our families, but we can cut down trees to take photos. WTF

The restoration of the views is not just for photographers but for everyone that comes to the park to see the views. Personally, my husband and I were upset that one of the trees at Tunnel View was cut down because we used it to add interest to some of our pictures. Plus, there are too many trees in not only the Valley but in other areas of the park so some need to be removed to restore the health of the forest.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 26, 2011 11:20AM
Quote
parklover
The restoration of the views is not just for photographers but for everyone that comes to the park to see the views. Personally, my husband and I were upset that one of the trees at Tunnel View was cut down because we used it to add interest to some of our pictures.quote]



Discovery View:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=37.715376,-119.680783&spn=0,0.001692&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=37.715441,-119.677012&panoid=yoO8J1UvPwrMJAjpM2GJgA&cbp=12,61.9,,0,0

Tunnel View:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=37.715376,-119.680783&spn=0,0.001692&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=37.715441,-119.677012&panoid=yoO8J1UvPwrMJAjpM2GJgA&cbp=12,286.11,,0,0
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 26, 2011 01:12PM
Quote
szalkowski

Quote
parklover

The restoration of the views is not just for photographers but for everyone that comes to the park to see the views. Personally, my husband and I were upset that one of the trees at Tunnel View was cut down because we used it to add interest to some of our pictures.


Discovery View:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=37.715376,-119.680783&spn=0,0.001692&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=37.715441,-119.677012&panoid=yoO8J1UvPwrMJAjpM2GJgA&cbp=12,61.9,,0,0

Discovery View would be a misnomer since that wasn't the view that anyone (both white man or indian) would have seen when they first laid they eyes on Yosemite Valley.

Tunnel View is a more appropriate name since it is the view of Yosemite Valley when one emerges from the Wawona Tunnel.

smiling smiley
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 26, 2011 01:23PM
Quote
plawrence
Quote
szalkowski

Quote
parklover

The restoration of the views is not just for photographers but for everyone that comes to the park to see the views. Personally, my husband and I were upset that one of the trees at Tunnel View was cut down because we used it to add interest to some of our pictures.


Discovery View:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=37.715376,-119.680783&spn=0,0.001692&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=37.715441,-119.677012&panoid=yoO8J1UvPwrMJAjpM2GJgA&cbp=12,61.9,,0,0

Discovery View would be a misnomer since that wasn't the view that anyone (both white man or indian) would have seen when they first laid they eyes on Yosemite Valley.

Tunnel View is a more appropriate name since it is the view of Yosemite Valley when one emerges from the Wawona Tunnel.

smiling smiley


You might want to talk to the folks over at the USGS about that since Discovery View is the official name of the location on their maps.
Marmot



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2011 01:29PM by szalkowski.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 26, 2011 02:09PM
Quote
szalkowski
Quote
plawrence
Quote
szalkowski

Quote
parklover

The restoration of the views is not just for photographers but for everyone that comes to the park to see the views. Personally, my husband and I were upset that one of the trees at Tunnel View was cut down because we used it to add interest to some of our pictures.


Discovery View:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=37.715376,-119.680783&spn=0,0.001692&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=37.715441,-119.677012&panoid=yoO8J1UvPwrMJAjpM2GJgA&cbp=12,61.9,,0,0

Discovery View would be a misnomer since that wasn't the view that anyone (both white man or indian) would have seen when they first laid they eyes on Yosemite Valley.

Tunnel View is a more appropriate name since it is the view of Yosemite Valley when one emerges from the Wawona Tunnel.

smiling smiley


You might want to talk to the folks over at the USGS about that since Discovery View is the official name of the location on their maps.
Marmot

Nevertheless, it's still a misnomer.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 29, 2011 09:09AM
Quote
plawrence
Quote
szalkowski
Quote
plawrence
Discovery View would be a misnomer since that wasn't the view that anyone (both white man or indian) would have seen when they first laid they eyes on Yosemite Valley.

Tunnel View is a more appropriate name since it is the view of Yosemite Valley when one emerges from the Wawona Tunnel.
smiling smiley


You might want to talk to the folks over at the USGS about that since Discovery View is the official name of the location on their maps.
Marmot

Nevertheless, it's still a misnomer.


The attachment "View" to the name of a location is almost universally assigned to the object which one is viewing. Hence, my designations on the Google Maps links above. I seriously doubt, however, that most people stop at that location to look at the tunnel. Similar locations in the near vicinity are “Valley View” (hopefully self-explanatory to all) and “Rainbow View” (the rainbow produced by the mist from Bridalveil Fall).

This location is a reasonable (read “trivially accessible”) approximation to the first sighting of Yosemite Valley by the Mariposa Batallion, which is the likely reason that the USGS settled on the “Discovery View” name. The expedition's route was over 2k higher up the hillside and, of course, they were not the first white men to see the valley, but a general awareness of the valley's existence resulted from their reports.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 29, 2011 11:10AM
Quote
szalkowski
Quote
plawrence
Quote
szalkowski

You might want to talk to the folks over at the USGS about that since Discovery View is the official name of the location on their maps.
Marmot

Nevertheless, it's still a misnomer.


The attachment "View" to the name of a location is almost universally assigned to the object which one is viewing. Hence, my designations on the Google Maps links above. I seriously doubt, however, that most people stop at that location to look at the tunnel. Similar locations in the near vicinity are “Valley View” (hopefully self-explanatory to all) and “Rainbow View” (the rainbow produced by the mist from Bridalveil Fall).

This location is a reasonable (read “trivially accessible”) approximation to the first sighting of Yosemite Valley by the Mariposa Batallion, which is the likely reason that the USGS settled on the “Discovery View” name. The expedition's route was over 2k higher up the hillside and, of course, they were not the first white men to see the valley, but a general awareness of the valley's existence resulted from their reports.

Last time I checked, 2,000 feet lower is quite a bit lower to be considered a reasonable approximation of what the Mariposa Battalion saw when they first laid their eyes on Yosemite Valley. So calling it Discovery View is still a misnomer. The Park Service shouldn't be miseducating park visitors by claiming something that wasn't the case.

If the Park Service (or the USGS) wants to name something "Discovery View" in Yosemite, it probably ought to be Old Inspiration Point.

So if Tunnel View isn't the best name for the overlook (for the reason you cited), they ought to assign a more appropriate name than Discovery View. Since it was Ansel Adams that made this view so famous with his photo from it soon after the Wawona Tunnel was built and the vista point constructed, maybe they should rename it Ansel's View. That would be a more appropriate name, IMHO, than Discovery View.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 29, 2011 02:53PM
Quote
plawrence
Quote
szalkowski
Quote
plawrence
Quote
szalkowski

You might want to talk to the folks over at the USGS about that since Discovery View is the official name of the location on their maps.
Marmot

Nevertheless, it's still a misnomer.


The attachment "View" to the name of a location is almost universally assigned to the object which one is viewing. Hence, my designations on the Google Maps links above. I seriously doubt, however, that most people stop at that location to look at the tunnel. Similar locations in the near vicinity are “Valley View” (hopefully self-explanatory to all) and “Rainbow View” (the rainbow produced by the mist from Bridalveil Fall).

This location is a reasonable (read “trivially accessible”) approximation to the first sighting of Yosemite Valley by the Mariposa Batallion, which is the likely reason that the USGS settled on the “Discovery View” name. The expedition's route was over 2k higher up the hillside and, of course, they were not the first white men to see the valley, but a general awareness of the valley's existence resulted from their reports.

Last time I checked, 2,000 feet lower is quite a bit lower to be considered a reasonable approximation of what the Mariposa Battalion saw when they first laid their eyes on Yosemite Valley. So calling it Discovery View is still a misnomer. The Park Service shouldn't be miseducating park visitors by claiming something that wasn't the case.

If the Park Service (or the USGS) wants to name something "Discovery View" in Yosemite, it probably ought to be Old Inspiration Point.

So if Tunnel View isn't the best name for the overlook (for the reason you cited), they ought to assign a more appropriate name than Discovery View. Since it was Ansel Adams that made this view so famous with his photo from it soon after the Wawona Tunnel was built and the vista point constructed, maybe they should rename it Ansel's View. That would be a more appropriate name, IMHO, than Discovery View.


What about the recent discovery view of Half Dome from Turlock?



The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 29, 2011 04:10PM
Quote
Frank Furter
What about the recent discovery view of Half Dome from Turlock?



Reversing that, since you can see Turlock from HD, rename HD to Turlock View
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 29, 2011 04:17PM
Quote
szalkowski
Quote
Frank Furter

What about the recent discovery view of Half Dome from Turlock?

Reversing that, since you can see Turlock from HD, rename HD to Turlock View

Talking about renaming Half Dome, what year was it that South Dome was renamed Half Dome?
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 29, 2011 07:11PM
Quote
plawrence
Quote
szalkowski
Quote
Frank Furter

What about the recent discovery view of Half Dome from Turlock?

Reversing that, since you can see Turlock from HD, rename HD to Turlock View

Talking about renaming Half Dome, what year was it that South Dome was renamed Half Dome?
According to this page http://www.yosemite.ca.us/library/yosemite_its_wonders_and_its_beauties/south_dome.html Mt Star King is also known as South Dome.

But John Muir called what we call Half Dome, South Dome. http://www.sierraclub.org/john_muir_exhibit/writings/the_yosemite/chapter_10.aspx



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2011 07:13PM by hotrod4x5.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 29, 2011 10:01PM
Quote
hotrod4x5
Quote
plawrence

Talking about renaming Half Dome, what year was it that South Dome was renamed Half Dome?

According to this page http://www.yosemite.ca.us/library/yosemite_its_wonders_and_its_beauties/south_dome.html Mt Star King is also known as South Dome.

But John Muir called what we call Half Dome, South Dome. http://www.sierraclub.org/john_muir_exhibit/writings/the_yosemite/chapter_10.aspx


If you look at the oldest maps of Yosemite Valley, Half Dome is usually listed as South Dome.

And for kicks, go to http://images.google.com and search for: south dome yosemite

It's a great way to pull up some of the the oldest paintings and photographs of Half Dome.

Here's a link to the search results: http://goo.gl/W4dfT



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2011 10:03PM by plawrence.
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 27, 2011 09:56AM
Quote
szalkowski
Quote
parklover
The restoration of the views is not just for photographers but for everyone that comes to the park to see the views. Personally, my husband and I were upset that one of the trees at Tunnel View was cut down because we used it to add interest to some of our pictures.quote]



Discovery View:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=37.715376,-119.680783&spn=0,0.001692&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=37.715441,-119.677012&panoid=yoO8J1UvPwrMJAjpM2GJgA&cbp=12,61.9,,0,0

Tunnel View:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=37.715376,-119.680783&spn=0,0.001692&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=37.715441,-119.677012&panoid=yoO8J1UvPwrMJAjpM2GJgA&cbp=12,286.11,,0,0
Wow, I had forgotten about those large trees! The view is certainly nicer now.
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 26, 2011 02:16PM
better pictures from the road = less people on the trails?
Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 26, 2011 07:23PM
one of the Inspiration Points certainly needs it, methinks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2011 07:25PM by Ohnivy-Drak.
avatar Re: New plan to preserve the views in Yosemite begins with 'timber!'
July 27, 2011 07:08AM
I lub trees...

But sorry guys, you're in the way!

I'm for this. Take out your Yosemite Road guide and start driving.... and good luck.
B11 - North Country View
Uh huh

They should also use that guide and provide some nice turnouts and nature trails.
Even when the guide says there is a nature trail...



Chick-on is looking at you!
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login