Re: NPR Reports on Scalping Campsites in Yosemite

Here is a good article NPR reported on scalping campsites in Yosemite last year.

http://www.npr.org/2011/07/07/137496875/yosemite-cracks-down-on-campsite-scalpers

Somebody should let them know it is still going on.

"snow from a heavy winter..."

What??? Is that a year old?

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hotrod4x5
"snow from a heavy winter..."

What??? Is that a year old?

Yes.

yup, July 2011 article

Regarding buying a scalped campsite ticket:

"And it was easy, and not ungodly expensive, and I didn't have to plan my vacation six months in advance"

I have to say, that's a very compelling argument. Especially the last bit. I don't condone the practice at all, but he makes a strong point.

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jishaq
Regarding buying a scalped campsite ticket:

"And it was easy, and not ungodly expensive, and I didn't have to plan my vacation six months in advance"

I have to say, that's a very compelling argument. Especially the last bit. I don't condone the practice at all, but he makes a strong point.

That's a lazy pathetic egotistical attitude.

Scalpers sell campsites for up to 170 a night. Screw over the common folks who plan ahead, wake up early in the morning to try to get a campsite only to have a lowlife leech scalper hack the system and snatch the majority of the sites.

Oh but of course, the good old jolly scalper made it easier for lazy people who decided they would like to camp at the last minute. Yes who cares if there were people who planned ahead and can't afford scalper prices. Tough luck.

Now now, let's not start with name calling.

I still assert he makes a strong point: It's a scarce resource and we're a capitalist economy, and someone always loses in that equation. In the end, someone will always pony up the $60 to pay for a $20 campsite because they got the friday off from work and their kids are dying to see a raccoon so they can feed it marshmallows; and in exchange, some honest person will get burned. It's true. Because of this, scalpers will never go away.

I'm surprised this is a problem, though -- if the rangers check IDs on each permit, unless I am overlooking something, the problem goes away immediately and completely. And Yosemite rangers are top notch when it comes to checking paperwork!

I think it would be cool to bring back scalping - not the campsite stuff, but the real deal. Catch some dude screwing with the reservations, whip out your bowie knife. Like you say, it's a scarce resource. Off with his rogaine!

The problem goes away immediately and completely! A top-notch solution.

If he has kids who are dying to see a raccoon, that can be arranged. I'm into this capitalist economy thing.

But you know, most of the folks around here are talking about Yosemite. Let's continue this discussion somewhere more appropriate, like on a scalping forum.

Thanks!

ed:typo



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/21/2012 12:02AM by QITNL.

I guess I'm in the minority too, in that I could care less about scalping sites. As in the rest of life, something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. And the example used, $170 a night, that really isn't too expensive and seems a fair price to stay in the grandeur that is Yosemite.

Anyways, since so many people seem to care about scalping sites so fervently, how about we have a section for scalping alone? Or if that was too much, how bout a backpacking/hiking section?

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oakroscoe
I guess I'm in the minority too, in that I could care less about scalping sites. As in the rest of life, something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. And the example used, $170 a night, that really isn't too expensive and seems a fair price to stay in the grandeur that is Yosemite.

Anyways, since so many people seem to care about scalping sites so fervently, how about we have a section for scalping alone? Or if that was too much, how bout a backpacking/hiking section?

I think your logic is a bit flawed. What is too much? Take that number and
use that number instead. Park charges 1/2 of that. Clown charges double
and screws the system. It's not right.

As for you other pts. I agree 110%. I've hinted at the later a few times...

---

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chick-on


I think your logic is a bit flawed. What is too much? Take that number and
use that number instead. Park charges 1/2 of that. Clown charges double
and screws the system. It's not right.

As for you other pts. I agree 110%. I've hinted at the later a few times...

Too much is what is what someone isn't willing to pay. I have no problem letting the free market dictate the price of a campsite.

As for a seperate section, I really think its time. The first 5 threads this afternoon are about scalping, so its obviously important to some people. However, I could care less. I come here for trip reports and pictures of the backcountry. So, whoever runs this place should seriously consider a seperate section for backpacking or a seperate section for scalping. That way those of you who feel passionately about scalping won't have to read anything from me defending it.

One other quick point, having that thread about David Tran stickied is very good advertisement for his services. You guys are basically giving someone most people have never heard of an advertisement.

My argument for letting the park service sell the sites themselves in an auction type environment is simple, you'll never be able to stop scalping, why not let the park service get the money instead of an individual?

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oakroscoe

Too much is what is what someone isn't willing to pay. I have no problem letting the free market dictate the price of a campsite.

As for a seperate section, I really think its time. The first 5 threads this afternoon are about scalping, so its obviously important to some people. However, I could care less. I come here for trip reports and pictures of the backcountry. So, whoever runs this place should seriously consider a seperate section for backpacking or a seperate section for scalping. That way those of you who feel passionately about scalping won't have to read anything from me defending it.

One other quick point, having that thread about David Tran stickied is very good advertisement for his services. You guys are basically giving someone most people have never heard of an advertisement.

My argument for letting the park service sell the sites themselves in an auction type environment is simple, you'll never be able to stop scalping, why not let the park service get the money instead of an individual?

Your idea turns on its head the very reason why Yosemite Valley and the Mariposa Grove was set aside in a public trust back in 1864, to ensure that Yosemite Valley and the Mariposa Grove would remain accessible to everyone of every means and wealth.

Even back in 1864 people didn't want Yosemite Valley to become just a vacation haven for the rich and wealthy like other resort areas back East. No, they wanted Yosemite Valley to remain public land so anyone could afford to visit it. And that includes staying overnight in the valley. So the U.S Government set aside Yosemite Valley and the Mariposa Grove back in 1864 and gave it to the State of California so the state would managed it so anyone of any means could visit and enjoy it.

So even today, it remains one of the Park Service's primary missions in regards to Yosemite Valley to keep it affordable for anyone. Frankly, they've done a lousy job in regards to keeping the lodging affordable, but at least the campsites still are.

.

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chick-on
I think your logic is a bit flawed. What is too much? Take that number and
use that number instead. Park charges 1/2 of that. Clown charges double
and screws the system. It's not right.

And it's not a "free market" when he steals the reservations in the first place.

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oakroscoe
I guess I'm in the minority too, in that I could care less about scalping sites. As in the rest of life, something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. And the example used, $170 a night, that really isn't too expensive and seems a fair price to stay in the grandeur that is Yosemite.

I respectfully disagree - When I read this article last year, I was concerned that many of the comments posted seemed to support scalping - I could care less if it was for a sporting event or a concert but a national park and the benefits contained shouldn't be included - I contributed my own comment to the NPR article which is reproduced below:


"Unfortunately, many of the comments here support a free capitalist supply/demand approach to the problem - The question is should National Parks be available to the free market - The National Parks are run by the government which is supported by the taxes that I pay - Free Market commodities are not. If it were ethical to scalp Yosemite campsites, where would it stop - Should I go to Craigslist to get tickets to the Whitehouse or the Capital (which need to be secured months in advance by your congressman)? If you support a free market approach to Yosemite Campsites then back up what you say. Let's stop all support from the government and just let free enterprise run our Parks with absolutely no government intervention whatsoever - If that happened, I imagine there wouldn't be a tree left in Yosemite Valley or the Giant Mariposa Groves - and mining would have destroyed much of the natural habitat."
Thursday, July 07, 2011 12:20:46 PM


Now one can say that the concessions are contracted out to the free market by the National Park - But this doesn't apply since this is something that is still controlled by the National Park System - Scalping is not.

Scalping keeps the people who cannot afford to stay in the Lodge or Curry Village from being able to get a campsite either. I don't know about some of you, but we scrape together barely enough money each year for a couple camping trips. That $100 for 5 nights is 1/3 of our budget for a trip. If we had to pay double or more, there is no way we could go.

I would say the scalping problem deserves it's own forum because it is THAT important.
The scalpers we are talking about are operating a sophisticated program that undermines the goal of the national park system.
Please read Tran's listing. It's a supermarket of sites. He's robbing the system, systematically!
The goal is make camping available to all, not just the well heeled opportunist with questionable ethics.
If money is no object then stay in Curry or the Lodge, or pony up for the Awahnee.
The only purpose this scalper has in mind is to profit from a National Park already overburdened by demand.
I find that people would support this incredibly disappointing.

Blue Moon,

Perhaps there should be a seperate section then. Honestly, I find that people are so passionate about this puzzling and I disagree with the questionable ethics line. I see nothing ethically wrong with paying more than face value for something that someone wants. Something is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. If hotrod4x5 isn't willing to pay more for a campsite then its not worth it to him, but it may be worth it to someone else. This all reads as a great ad for tran's campsites.

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oakroscoe
Blue Moon,

Perhaps there should be a seperate section then. Honestly, I find that people are so passionate about this puzzling and I disagree with the questionable ethics line. I see nothing ethically wrong with paying more than face value for something that someone wants. Something is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. If hotrod4x5 isn't willing to pay more for a campsite then its not worth it to him, but it may be worth it to someone else. This all reads as a great ad for tran's campsites.

that would make sense if Yosemite was selling the permits for an obscene amount of money, or if there was an auction for the permits. Whoever is willing to pay more for a campsite, gets it.

However, it's a government regulated park that placed an affordable tag for ALL to see. Not for the ones with money and no planning capabilities. Re-selling permits are prohibited to prevent scalping as well as keep a fair playing field for families who can't afford to shell out hundreds of dollars for a couple of nights to camp in a forest.

And this is just the ethics part of the entire situation. We're not even beginning to dwell into the shady practices of Tran and transferring names onto the same campsite, using the names of people who bought his campsite and placing them on other campsites to limit his name exposure while he attempts to sell the site, as well as the risk of not even having a legitimate campsite since yosemite blocked the transfer of names.

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oakroscoe
Blue Moon,

Perhaps there should be a seperate section then. Honestly, I find that people are so passionate about this puzzling and I disagree with the questionable ethics line. I see nothing ethically wrong with paying more than face value for something that someone wants. Something is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. If hotrod4x5 isn't willing to pay more for a campsite then its not worth it to him, but it may be worth it to someone else. This all reads as a great ad for tran's campsites.

It isn't that I am unwilling, I am unable.

Our parks are subsidized by the government, by tax dollars. I pay taxes. They set the price. It is not right for one man to profit off a government run facility that is owned by American citizens.

It should be illegal.

Explain why it is ok for one man to make money from this? He is ripping off the American people, us, the tax payers.

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oakroscoe
Blue Moon,

Perhaps there should be a seperate section then. Honestly, I find that people are so passionate about this puzzling and I disagree with the questionable ethics line. I see nothing ethically wrong with paying more than face value for something that someone wants. Something is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. If hotrod4x5 isn't willing to pay more for a campsite then its not worth it to him, but it may be worth it to someone else. This all reads as a great ad for tran's campsites.

It's a moral issue, perhaps that's why a few have a hard time relating. If the almighty dollar is all that matters, you're right, but I don't think you'll find that everyone agrees with that philosophy.

What's wrong with paying more than face value is the fact that a majority of that money is going to someone who has contributed nothing. Taxpayers have funded the park with funds and efforts that built the roads, protected what needs protecting, enforced the rules, and preserved a place that matters a lot more than $$ to some of us. Volunteers and wage-earners have built and repaired trails, mapped, repaired, planted, and maintained. Even profit-motivated outfits such as DNC have contributed in exchange for what they receive...at least they provide a place to sleep and food to eat, where scalpers contribute nothing.

So some sleazeball who has done nothing buys the campsites, and holds them for ransom. He has contributed nothing, he's simply a leech, a parasite, except that's perhaps an insult to genuine parasites because they sometimes also provide some benefit to their host. Scalpers give nothing, they simply take; and I suppose if you're of the philosophy that capitalism is king and above reproach, you might think that's OK. If you were born rich, or don't want to camp in the valley, then what do you care if others can't enjoy the valley because greedy scalpers have made it so that only people with lots of money, or a big credit line and willingness to use it, can get a site? Who cares, you're not staying there anyway.

Why not just sell the presidency to the highest bidder, and the same with other government reps? Money is king, so if someone can pay more, they're entitled to it. People shouldn't have to actually DO anything to profit.

Look how well it's worked out for the US...we used to DO things; build houses, manufacture quality products, grow nutritious crops, build railroads and bridges that didn't cost exorbitant amounts, but now we're so much better off with the true American dream of being a bunch of money-shufflers that don't actually DO anything. And good old Tran is right there showing us how we should be doing things, the only problem is it's illegal, but that's silly, who cares. Hey, maybe we can ALL do that, then what a great place this would be.

As for the "advertising", it's much better to have the information about the scumbag right there for people to see; knowledge is good. People can then decide on their own if they want to support an illegal (and some of us think immoral) activity and line this jerk's pockets with profit for doing nothing. That's better than not knowing, thinking he's just some sort of "ticket agent" who is smilingly approved by the Park Service, and (hopefully) being turned away when you try to check in.

As I said, it's a moral issue, besides being an illegal activity, and that bothers some of us. If it doesn't bother you, and in fact even annoys you that it's discussed so much, then perhaps you and Tran have something in common. The people here, with all the efforts, have done a lot to curtail this problem...not long ago it wasn't even considered illegal, now it's illegal, and they're at least supposed to be checking ID's, and people are getting turned away, and that IS progress. As for the idea expressed that there will "always" be scalpers, so why bother, that's a defeatist attitude that plays exactly into sleazebag tran's strategy.

Hack away at them long enough, and they will go away (and if not at least one can feel they did the best they could), but it takes perserverence and determination, not indifference and giving up.

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Gary
Yosemite Photo Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/roberthouse/yo

Well said Gary!

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hotrod4x5
Well said Gary!

My thoughts exactly!

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oakroscoe
Blue Moon,

Perhaps there should be a seperate section then. Honestly, I find that people are so passionate about this puzzling and I disagree with the questionable ethics line. I see nothing ethically wrong with paying more than face value for something that someone wants. Something is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. If hotrod4x5 isn't willing to pay more for a campsite then its not worth it to him, but it may be worth it to someone else. This all reads as a great ad for tran's campsites.

Funny, looking for sites on Google, all I get is links to warnings about the scam. I can't actually find a link to try and buy a scalped site. I think the sticky post has done its job! Great!

Oh, and I really see no point for a separate section for scalping posts. It is very easy to scroll past and find all kinds of good info here. I find that argument invalid.