Re: Old Faithful "wilderness"

I think this shows how "wild" the Old Faithful area is:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.458259,-110.832653&spn=0.014489,0.026157&t=k&z=16

Personally, I enjoyed the Black Sand Basin, located just to the west, far more than I enjoyed the Old Faithful area itself.

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Bob Weaver
Personally, I enjoyed the Black Sand Basin, located just to the west, far more than I enjoyed the Old Faithful area itself.

The walk between the two is nice and quiet. Well, ok, there was that boiling sound:

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eeek
I think this shows how "wild" the Old Faithful area is:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.458259,-110.832653&spn=0.014489,0.026157&t=k&z=16

There was a bear fatality associated with the campground (old, now non-existent) in the Old Faithful area in the 50's I think; just east of the Old Faithful parking lot is a meadow call the "Bears Playground" where bears would congregate when garbage dumps were used to attract bears for entertainment (before 1970); and a few years ago a jogger was "gummed" (softly bitten) by a bear in a parking lot (possibly over by Lake Lodge). Wilderness can be anywhere in Yellowstone.

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

Joggers = prey

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FF
Wilderness can be anywhere in Yellowstone.

Now that you mention it; I quite agree

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Frank Furter

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eeek
I think this shows how "wild" the Old Faithful area is:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.458259,-110.832653&spn=0.014489,0.026157&t=k&z=16

There was a bear fatality associated with the campground (old, now non-existent) in the Old Faithful area in the 50's I think; just east of the Old Faithful parking lot is a meadow call the "Bears Playground" where bears would congregate when garbage dumps were used to attract bears for entertainment (before 1970); and a few years ago a jogger was "gummed" (softly bitten) by a bear in a parking lot (possibly over by Lake Lodge). Wilderness can be anywhere in Yellowstone.

There's is no (Congressionally designated) wilderness areas in Yellowstone NP. Apparently there's none in Grand Canyon NP either. Same goes for Glacier NP and Grand Teton NP.

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y_p_w


There's is no (Congressionally designated) wilderness areas in Yellowstone NP. Apparently there's none in Grand Canyon NP either. Same goes for Glacier NP and Grand Teton NP.

Educate me on this. What is the implication? It seems to me that a Wilderness designation is less restrictive and less durable than a national park designation. Are there National Forests within National Parks? You are in the "backcountry" as soon as you leave a road or paved walkway in Yellowstone, even if the road is 10 feet away. At least that is what I have been told by rangers.

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

The biggest difference is a designated wilderness prevents roads from being built.

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Frank Furter

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y_p_w


There's is no (Congressionally designated) wilderness areas in Yellowstone NP. Apparently there's none in Grand Canyon NP either. Same goes for Glacier NP and Grand Teton NP.

Educate me on this. What is the implication? It seems to me that a Wilderness designation is less restrictive and less durable than a national park designation. Are there National Forests within National Parks? You are in the "backcountry" as soon as you leave a road or paved walkway in Yellowstone, even if the road is 10 feet away. At least that is what I have been told by rangers.

There's no overlap of National Forests and National Parks. It ends right at any boundary. However - these larger units can contain designated wilderness.

Congressionally designated wilderness areas are always completely located within the boundary of a particular "unit", whether it's under FS, NPS, or BLM jurisdiction. For example, the Phillip Burton Wilderness Area is located completely within Point Reyes National Seashore. One of my favorite places is Desolation Wilderness, located completely within the boundaries of Eldorado National Forest.

It's supposed to mean no buildings, vehicular roads, or use of mechanical transportation (like bicycles). It's kind of strange though. I've seen some wilderness areas where there's a strip of non-wilderness cut right through where there's a pre-existing road and a developed recreation area surrounded by wilderness. I've seen a dam in a wilderness area before.

For the Grand Canyon, I can figure that there were some commercial mining activities that precluded the designation. Canyonlands NP actually has several backcountry 4x4 trails, so they're not going to designate that. However - it's been possible to just draw the maps around all this.

Here's the text of the Wilderness Act of 1964:

http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&sec=legisAct

On this subject (Yellowstone Wilderness) I located the following pdf of documents from 1972.
http://wilderness.nps.gov/document/III-17.pdf


Apparently Yellowstone was considered for "wilderness designation" but presumably this never occured. Still not clear what would be provided by that designation. I cannot believe that roads could be built across Yellowstone with less objection than they could be build into a Wilderness area. It is perhaps possible that Yellowstone was not "untrammelled" sufficiently (there were many stage coach roads throughout the park).

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

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Frank Furter
(there were many stage coach roads throughout the park).

I noticed that while looking at Google maps. Now I know why.

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Frank Furter
On this subject (Yellowstone Wilderness) I located the following pdf of documents from 1972.
http://wilderness.nps.gov/document/III-17.pdf


Apparently Yellowstone was considered for "wilderness designation" but presumably this never occured. Still not clear what would be provided by that designation. I cannot believe that roads could be built across Yellowstone with less objection than they could be build into a Wilderness area. It is perhaps possible that Yellowstone was not "untrammelled" sufficiently (there were many stage coach roads throughout the park).

"Untrammeled" doesn't have to be the criterion. Even some commercial land has been converted to wilderness areas.

Right now there's a pre-existing business in Point Reyes NS - Drake's Bay Oyster Farm. They've got all the requisite permits from the State of California to farm/harvest shellfish in Drake's Estero. Their land base is operated within NPS property under a special use permit, and they would need it in order to afford to harvest. A further land base would be too far away. This area is designated as "potential wilderness". The park superintendent wants it closed, the buildings, docks, etc removed and the land eventually turned into protected wilderness added to the Phillip Burton Wilderness Area. There's controversy over whether or not he has the authority to extend the special use permit, although he claims he does not. I personally believe he does but is choosing not to.

http://www.marinij.com/marinnews/ci_12319628
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/05/05/MNIQ17ERPE.DTL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2009 09:32PM by y_p_w.

Untrammel-ness seems to be a part of the criteria for Wilderness:
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What is the Wilderness Act?
The Wilderness Act was passed by Congress in 1964 and continues to be the guiding piece of legislation for all Wilderness areas. The Act describes Wilderness as follows:



"...lands designated for preservation and protection in their natural condition..." Section 2(a)
"...an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man..." Section 2(c)
"...an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvement or human habitation..." Section 2(c)
"...generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable..." Section 2(c)
"...has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation..." Section 2(c)
"...shall be devoted to the public purposes of recreation, scenic, scientific, educational, conservation and historic use." Section 4(b)


What other laws affect Wilderness?
Although the Wilderness Act is the single piece of guiding legislation for all wilderness areas, many other laws affect wilderness. Some laws have designated additional wilderness areas, subsequent to those designated under the Wilderness Act. Others guide management, such as the Clean Air Act and the National Environmental Policy Act.

Who wrote the Wilderness Act?
Freedom is an essential quality of Wilderness and this quality was eloquently captured by Howard Zahniser, author of the Wilderness Act, in selection of the relatively obscure word "untrammeled" to define Wilderness. Many people read the word "untrammeled" as "untrampled," as not stepped on. Yet the word "untrammeled" means something much different. A "trammel" is a net used for catching fish, or a device used to keep horses from walking. To trammel something is to catch, shackle or restrain it. Untrammeled means something is free or unrestrained. So, Wilderness areas are to be unconstrained by humans. Zahniser defined "untrammeled" in the Wilderness Act as "not being subject to human controls and manipulations that hamper the free play of natural forces."


http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&sec=WhatIsWilderness

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

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Frank Furter
Untrammel-ness seems to be a part of the criteria for Wilderness:

I'm not sure how this works. What I know about Point Reyes is that there are buildings, docks, power lines, roads and lots of areas that have clearly been shaped by humans in this area declared to be potential wilderness. The purported reason why it can't be declared wilderness is that there is a commercial business and that removing that business would open up an actual wilderness designation.

As for "untrammeled" - I'm not sure what that means. I've been to Desolation Wilderness near Tahoe many times. There's a dam on Lake Gilmore. I haven't seen it myself, but there's also supposedly several larger dams on Lake Aloha, which is used as a lake for the El Dorado Irrigation District. The lake is completely surrounded by Desolation Wilderness. I'm sure that part of this is that these structures existed before the wilderness designation, but they never actually prevented the declaration itself.

Wilderness Meeting in Yosemite: http://www.nps.gov/yose/parknews/upload/daily.pdf

Wilderness Training:
Almost 95% of Yosemite National Park is Congressionally-designated Wilderness. Come join Yosemite's Wilderness staff
for a short, informative introduction to the concept of Wilderness and how it is managed in Yosemite National Park. This
training is open at no cost to all NPS employees and park partner staff. The training will be presented twice:
Monday, June 1 from 8:30am -noon; Cliff Room at Yosemite Lodge
Tuesday, June 30 from 8:30-noon; Cliff Room at Yosemite Lodge
Topics covered include: The Wilderness Act; National Park Service Wilderness Policy; Yosemite National Park's
Wilderness Management Plan; Visitor use of Yosemite's wilderness; NPS operations in wilderness; and the use of the
Minimum Requirement analysis process.
If interested in attending either of these sessions, RSVP to April Stowell at april_stowell@nps.gov or 209/372-0347. (P.
Meierding - 5/19/09)
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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan