Re: Dear Bus Driver

Yes, you, they guy driving a bus up highway 180 to Kings Canyon at 20 to 25 MPH. Did you see those signs that say "Slower Traffic Use Turnouts" and the signs that said "Turnout 1/4 Mile". Those were for you. But you were too rude to take a few seconds to let a car by. I hope you get a massive case of very painful hemorrhoids!

Bus drivers believe they are exempted from the law. "It's too hard to get the bus going again." It must be rough having to press the gas pedal down an extra inch.

Quote
Dave
Bus drivers believe they are exempted from the law.

That's a good reason for more surprise inspections.

Do you remember which bus company it was. If so, write them a letter (or send them an email) with the date and time they were traveling.

In my experience, the majority of bus drivers (but clearly not all) are courteous and do use the pullouts to let faster traffic pass them. And often times, buses are actually traveling at (or even above) the posted speed limit even on Sierra highways like Hwy 120 or 180.

I usually have far more problems with regular non-commercial drivers impeding my travels by driving too slow and not using the pullouts to let others pass.

Meeester Eeeek,
I believe I found the root of your problem (either that or he is telling you something):

---

It is quite annoying, being stuck behind a slow driver who doesn't use turnoffs on winding mountain roads. Also being in a gutless economy car which cannot even overtake the slow vehicle...stinks.
But here's something that has occurred to me, and it does occasionally have some truth:

Slow bus driver pulls into turnout. You & other drivers pass. Slow-moving vehicle wants to get moving again, but every time he is about to floor the accelerator, a car immediately comes into view in his side mirror. "Oh, great. I pulled over for those other motorists, and now that I want to get going, I can't-- because it takes my heavy/weak vehicle a long time to gain momentum. If I pull into the roadway with my bus, a car will quickly come into view and will be forced to slam on his brakes so he doesn't rear-end me."

Do you see the quandry I describe?

Similar situation. I pull onto the wide shoulder on the highway in my Civic to grab something out of my trunk. Ok...now I'm done & ready to hop back onto the highway. I wait a couple minutes until the coast finally is clear, and I floor it. But the cars (even in the slow lane) come up on me so fast that they have to ride their brakes to avoid smacking into me.
Ok, now imagine I was a bus. Which is even slower.
See the problem? Catch 22 perhaps? No-win situation?
Maybe no one is at fault?

Quote
herosemblem
...Do you see the quandry I describe?

Yes, but the traffic is not that constant. With no more than a two to three minute wait the driver can be back on the road. If it takes longer than that, then the driver should have pulled over sooner.

The law:
California Vehicle Code Section 21656

On a two-lane highway where passing is unsafe because of traffic in the opposite direction or other conditions, a slow-moving vehicle, including a passenger vehicle, behind which five or more vehicles are formed in line, shall turn off the roadway at the nearest place designated as a turnout by signs erected by the authority having jurisdiction over the highway, or wherever sufficient area for a safe turnout exists, in order to permit the vehicles following it to proceed. As used in this section a slow-moving vehicle is one which is proceeding at a rate of speed less than the normal flow of traffic at the particular time and place.

Notice that the law says nothing about how big the vehicle is, how "hard" it is to get it going again, or who long it would take. It says five or more cars.

Quote
herosemblem
It is quite annoying, being stuck behind a slow driver who doesn't use turnoffs on winding mountain roads. Also being in a gutless economy car which cannot even overtake the slow vehicle...stinks.
But here's something that has occurred to me, and it does occasionally have some truth:

Slow bus driver pulls into turnout. You & other drivers pass. Slow-moving vehicle wants to get moving again, but every time he is about to floor the accelerator, a car immediately comes into view in his side mirror. "Oh, great. I pulled over for those other motorists, and now that I want to get going, I can't-- because it takes my heavy/weak vehicle a long time to gain momentum. If I pull into the roadway with my bus, a car will quickly come into view and will be forced to slam on his brakes so he doesn't rear-end me."

Do you see the quandry I describe?

The rules of the road say that slower traffic must use turnouts (specifically, in CA, its an offense to not use a turnout if you have 5 or more vehicles behind you). I see no quandary. A hypothetical vehicle that can't pull out from a turnout because it moves so slowly it would cause traffic behind to skid would seemingly have the same problem pulling out from a stop sign. Should that vehicle therefore not stop at stop signs, or should it simply not be on the road?

The law reads loud and clear RE this; thanks for identifying the relevant section of the CA V.C., Dave.

Now, Tlilley... a slow-moving vehicle which has great difficulty pulling out from a turnout (one which causes distant-yet-approaching vehicles to aggressively brake because of said slow vehicle entering the roadway) would indeed have the same difficulty pulling out from a stop sign, as you said.
But-- I don't understand the analogy with the stop signs.

Anyway, I think it's somewhat of a mere...crappy situation with no easy solution. The vehicle code prescribes the procedure for such a situation (use turnout when 5 angry people are riding your tail etc). But when the bus driver pulls into the turnout to let the cars through (that solves 1 problem), in doing so, another problem is created, right? When he pulls out (and the coast has even been clear for a while), drivers still come right upon him and have to use their brakes very briskly. Right?

Quote
herosemblem
The law reads loud and clear RE this; thanks for identifying the relevant section of the CA V.C., Dave.

Now, Tlilley... a slow-moving vehicle which has great difficulty pulling out from a turnout (one which causes distant-yet-approaching vehicles to aggressively brake because of said slow vehicle entering the roadway) would indeed have the same difficulty pulling out from a stop sign, as you said.
But-- I don't understand the analogy with the stop signs.

Anyway, I think it's somewhat of a mere...crappy situation with no easy solution. The vehicle code prescribes the procedure for such a situation (use turnout when 5 angry people are riding your tail etc). But when the bus driver pulls into the turnout to let the cars through (that solves 1 problem), in doing so, another problem is created, right? When he pulls out (and the coast has even been clear for a while), drivers still come right upon him and have to use their brakes very briskly. Right?

I thought the analogy was clear, and it seems you agree with the basis for it. A driver who can't safely pull out of a turnout which s/he is legally required to use, similarly, can't safely pull out from a stop sign which s/he is legally required to observe. The idea that the former situation presents a quandary suggests that the driver sees an alternative to obeying the law regarding turnouts. But, of course, we both agree that the same safety issue applies to pulling out of stop signs! So, presumably, the same question arises. Does the driver obey stop signs, thereby creating an unsafe situation? Or should the vehicle and/or driver be considered unfit to travel the public roads, on the grounds that a vehicle/driver combination which can't observe stop signs has no safe way to be on the road?

Quote
herosemblem
The law reads loud and clear RE this; thanks for identifying the relevant section of the CA V.C., Dave.

Now, Tlilley... a slow-moving vehicle which has great difficulty pulling out from a turnout (one which causes distant-yet-approaching vehicles to aggressively brake because of said slow vehicle entering the roadway) would indeed have the same difficulty pulling out from a stop sign, as you said.
But-- I don't understand the analogy with the stop signs.

Anyway, I think it's somewhat of a mere...crappy situation with no easy solution. The vehicle code prescribes the procedure for such a situation (use turnout when 5 angry people are riding your tail etc). But when the bus driver pulls into the turnout to let the cars through (that solves 1 problem), in doing so, another problem is created, right? When he pulls out (and the coast has even been clear for a while), drivers still come right upon him and have to use their brakes very briskly. Right?

Wrong.

Because in real life driving, there's rarely if ever a situation of an unbroken stream of cars on rural mountain roads. When a slower vehicle pulls over (sometimes that's ME when I'm towing a trailer), there will always be a large break in the traffic where I'll have no problem merging back onto the highway and getting back up to speed. The hypothetical situation you describe rarely exists on mountain roads, especially in and around Yosemite.

Quote
plawrence
Because in real life driving, there's rarely if ever a situation of an unbroken stream of cars on rural mountain roads. When a slower vehicle pulls over (sometimes that's ME when I'm towing a trailer), there will always be a large break in the traffic where I'll have no problem merging back onto the highway and getting back up to speed. The hypothetical situation you describe rarely exists on mountain roads, especially in and around Yosemite.

I have never seen such a situation. When I feel like driving slow, or towing a trailer full of llamas, I will pull over every chance I get - even if there is just one car behind me. I have never been stuck on the side of the road waiting an hour for a break in the traffic. It just doesn't happen.

Quote
Dave

Quote
plawrence
Because in real life driving, there's rarely if ever a situation of an unbroken stream of cars on rural mountain roads. When a slower vehicle pulls over (sometimes that's ME when I'm towing a trailer), there will always be a large break in the traffic where I'll have no problem merging back onto the highway and getting back up to speed. The hypothetical situation you describe rarely exists on mountain roads, especially in and around Yosemite.

I have never seen such a situation. When I feel like driving slow, or towing a trailer full of llamas, I will pull over every chance I get - even if there is just one car behind me. I have never been stuck on the side of the road waiting an hour for a break in the traffic. It just doesn't happen.

Ditto. I don't wait for five cars to be stuck behind me. Even if there's only one car behind me that wants to pass me, I let them. It's no sweat off my back.

Quote
herosemblem
Now, Tlilley... a slow-moving vehicle which has great difficulty pulling out from a turnout (one which causes distant-yet-approaching vehicles to aggressively brake because of said slow vehicle entering the roadway) would indeed have the same difficulty pulling out from a stop sign, as you said.
But-- I don't understand the analogy with the stop signs.

The analogy isn't even relevant. The bus is obligated to use a turnout. If it can't safely enter traffic after using the turnout, it doesn't belong on the road.

Quote
eeek

Quote
herosemblem
Now, Tlilley... a slow-moving vehicle which has great difficulty pulling out from a turnout (one which causes distant-yet-approaching vehicles to aggressively brake because of said slow vehicle entering the roadway) would indeed have the same difficulty pulling out from a stop sign, as you said.
But-- I don't understand the analogy with the stop signs.

The analogy isn't even relevant....

unless the cars speeding toward you aren't planning on halting for the stop sign.


Seriously, on the other issue, anyone who knows how to drive a manual transmission can tell you how to minimize your time to attaining speed.

You can also do it with an automatic transmission if you are not wedded to the "D" setting. (Hint: power and torque both increase with engine rpm... up to a point; it's advisable not to drive too near to the tachometer redline.)

Without much trouble, you can even pass that slow-moving vehicle driving along the highway (mentioned earlier) in that gutless economy car... if you have a stick shift.

Personally, we think that automatic transmission vehicles should be banned from the mountains.
(Forcefully Yours)
The Marmots

Quote
eeek
The analogy isn't even relevant. The bus is obligated to use a turnout. If it can't safely enter traffic after using the turnout, it doesn't belong on the road.

How is the analogy not relevant? The entire point of the analogy, which I introduced, was that just as the bus is obligatged to use a turnout, its also obligated to observe stop signs. I trusted we could all agree that a bus that couldn't safely observe a stop sign didn't belong on the road, observed that everyone here agreed that the inability to use a turnout is _no different_, therefore the obvious conclusion was that a bus that couldn't safely use a turnout doesn't belong on the road. Do we not all agree that a bus which can't observe stop signs doesn't belong on the road?

Quote
ttilley
... Do we not all agree that a bus which can't observe stop signs doesn't belong on the road?

Sure, we agree.
But any vehicle which can't observe stop signs... also does not belong on the road.

Ignore



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2011 01:26AM by herosemblem.

Quote
eeek

Quote
herosemblem
Now, Tlilley... a slow-moving vehicle which has great difficulty pulling out from a turnout (one which causes distant-yet-approaching vehicles to aggressively brake because of said slow vehicle entering the roadway) would indeed have the same difficulty pulling out from a stop sign, as you said.
But-- I don't understand the analogy with the stop signs.

The analogy isn't even relevant. The bus is obligated to use a turnout. If it can't safely enter traffic after using the turnout, it doesn't belong on the road.

Well, then, the question is answered. The bus does not belong on the road.
(Good luck with that).

Quote
herosemblem

Quote
eeek

Quote
herosemblem
Now, Tlilley... a slow-moving vehicle which has great difficulty pulling out from a turnout (one which causes distant-yet-approaching vehicles to aggressively brake because of said slow vehicle entering the roadway) would indeed have the same difficulty pulling out from a stop sign, as you said.
But-- I don't understand the analogy with the stop signs.

The analogy isn't even relevant. The bus is obligated to use a turnout. If it can't safely enter traffic after using the turnout, it doesn't belong on the road.

Well, then, the question is answered. The bus does not belong on the road.
(Good luck with that).

Buses are obligated to obey the law like everyone else. They do not get to run stop signs just because they don't want to start the bus moving again, just like they do not get to disregard the law when it comes to pulling over. The bus in the analogy bus does not belong on the road because of it's inability to stop. They have vehicle inspections in the park where the commercial buses must be inspected for mechanical, and other violations. Many have been towed out of the park.

Quote
herosemblem
...Anyway, I think it's somewhat of a mere...crappy situation with no easy solution. The vehicle code prescribes the procedure for such a situation (use turnout when 5 angry people are riding your tail etc).

Who said they are angry?

Quote

But when the bus driver pulls into the turnout to let the cars through (that solves 1 problem), in doing so, another problem is created, right? When he pulls out (and the coast has even been clear for a while), drivers still come right upon him and have to use their brakes very briskly. Right?

Wrong. The driver of the vehicle in the turnout lane MUST wait until the road is clear before re-entering the road way. If the driver pulls out into traffic and people have to slam on their brakes, then that person has made an unsafe lane change - and has broken another law.

Quote
Dave

Wrong. The driver of the vehicle in the turnout lane MUST wait until the road is clear before re-entering the road way. If the driver pulls out into traffic and people have to slam on their brakes, then that person has made an unsafe lane change - and has broken another law.[/quote]

Dave, you have misrepresented and misunderstood just about everything I have said. Please silence yourself. You are correct in what you said, but do not misrepresent what I said. Multiple times.

All my comments refer to this situation: Driver A pulls into turnout, allows vehicles to pass. (Driver A can be an average car, or even a heavy bus. Driver A inspects roadway behind (and in front)...no vehicles coming. Driver A extends neck further, checks all mirrors extensively...still no vehicles far as Driver A can see behind himself. Driver A signals, enters roadway at brisk rate, and still, Driver B suddenly appears right up on Driver A's tail. Driver B brakes quite briskly to avoid rear-ending Driver A.

I know you have experienced this situation as Driver A. Do not pretend it doesn't exist, and occurs often during your drives on the Tioga Rd & Glacier Pt road. Now, understand that this situation is usually experienced on mountain roads (which tend to have many turns...). you won't experience this situation nearly as often on long, straight roads.
Example: You are parked in the wide dirt shoulder on the opposite side of the road of Sunrise Lakes parking lot on Tioga Rd. (You are parked in the OK parking area just before the bus stop section. You check mirrors, signal, blah blah, coast is clear, and pull out. Suddenly, you have a car rapidly approaching your six. They have to brake hard, less they wish to hit you.
If that driver hits you, it would generally not be his fault, but... do you see what I'm saying?
You are out of the roadway, and despite all your due diligence, when you re-enter the roadway, you still have another car flying right up your tail as you pull out.
This is the mere "crappy situation" I discussed earlier. I wasn't implying that such a driver just jumps out into traffic, which causes traffic to brake abruptly.

The next time you use a turnout in Yosemite and you re-enter the road, and the first thing you say is "*******", you will finally know and experience exactly what I've been discussing this whole time. Yes, of course it would be your fault if the speed-limit driver rear ends you, but it's not like you just chose to jump out into traffic. You checked your mirrors, waited many tens of seconds (sometimes minutes), signaled, did all that.
But still a driver immediately comes right up on you.
Good. Now you see what I mean

Quote
herosemblem
Yes, of course it would be your fault if the speed-limit driver rear ends you..

Is there now a minimum speed law on non-freeways in California? Historically, it was illegal to contact a preceding vehicle, even if slow moving. Rear ending another vehicle legally on the roadway indicates travel too fast for the conditions.

---

The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

Quote
herosemblem
Dave, you have misrepresented and misunderstood just about everything I have said. Please silence yourself...

I will do no such thing. When ever I see you say something wrong, I will respond accordingly.

Quote

Good. Now you see what I mean

Yes, you want just make excuses for rude driving behaviors.

The bulk of your condescending post will not be responded to.

Agree. I find it somewhat funny how slow drivers will rationalize why it's better for them to keep on driving than to do what the law says, and pull over at a turnout to let five or more vehicles pass them.

And in regards to driving in Yosemite, many of these slow drivers tend to be oblivious to the posted speed limits of the road. Case in point: often times I'll be behind a slow driver driving towards Yosemite Valley on Big Oak Flat Road before Crane Flat. The driver will being going between 30 and 35 MPH where the posted speed limit is 40 MPH. But when the speed limit on Big Oak Flat Road drops down to 25 MPH when entering Crane Flat, do these drivers slow down to at least 25 MPH? No, they still continue at the speed they were driving and drive through Crane Flat between 30 and 35 MPH. They just drive at the speed they want to drive at regardless what the posted speed limit is.

I sympathize with all those who have been stuck behind a slow vehicle who refuses to pull over when opportunity presents itself. Been there many times. However, there's another side to this coin and I was on it this year. Due to the high costs involved with an annual trip to Yosemite from the East coast I chose this year to rent an economy car. I soon discovered that going up Tioga Pass from either Lee Vining or Tuolumne Meadows proved to be a challenge for the car without it jumping frequently into overdrive. In this situation I had no problem willingly pulling over to allow others to pass whenever I found a safe place to do so. My beef is with the drivers behind me who were blatantly speeding or attempting to do so. There is no satisfying these people. To them speed limits are for other people. To hell with you; get out of my way! In some instances I barely escaped getting rear-ended while attempting to pull over safely out of respect for others. Can't help wondering how many of you complaining about slow drivers fall into this category.

Two years ago I hit a deer while going 30mph in the 35mph speed limit area just above the turnoff to the TM Permit Station. Never even saw it. It just launched itself from the opposite embankment and landed beside the car. Now, whenever driving in Yosemite I rarely enjoy the scenery. Instead I'm constantly scanning for thosed damned mule deer and the occasionally wayward bear. While I'm scanning and obeying the speed limit (regardless what kind of vehicle I'm driving) other drivers soon catch up and begin tailgating. Anybody exceeding the speed limits can not do so without totally ignoring the possibility of striking an animal.

Quote
tomdisco
I sympathize with all those who have been stuck behind a slow vehicle who refuses to pull over when opportunity presents itself. Been there many times. However, there's another side to this coin and I was on it this year. Due to the high costs involved with an annual trip to Yosemite from the East coast I chose this year to rent an economy car. I soon discovered that going up Tioga Pass from either Lee Vining or Tuolumne Meadows proved to be a challenge for the car without it jumping frequently into overdrive. In this situation I had no problem willingly pulling over to allow others to pass whenever I found a safe place to do so. My beef is with the drivers behind me who were blatantly speeding or attempting to do so. There is no satisfying these people. To them speed limits are for other people. To hell with you; get out of my way! In some instances I barely escaped getting rear-ended while attempting to pull over safely out of respect for others. Can't help wondering how many of you complaining about slow drivers fall into this category.

Two years ago I hit a deer while going 30mph in the 35mph speed limit area just above the turnoff to the TM Permit Station. Never even saw it. It just launched itself from the opposite embankment and landed beside the car. Now, whenever driving in Yosemite I rarely enjoy the scenery. Instead I'm constantly scanning for thosed damned mule deer and the occasionally wayward bear. While I'm scanning and obeying the speed limit (regardless what kind of vehicle I'm driving) other drivers soon catch up and begin tailgating. Anybody exceeding the speed limits can not do so without totally ignoring the possibility of striking an animal.

I agree. It's very annoying (and disturbing) when some hotshot driver comes up fast behind you and then starts tailgating you immediately without waiting for you to arrive at a pull-out where you can safely pullover. It's especially annoying when that happens inside of a National Park, where speed limits are set intentionally lower for added protection for the wildlife and fellow park visitors. There's not much one can do except to pull over at the first SAFE location you come across and let them go on their way.

Fortunately, when I drive close to the posted speed limit that doesn't happen too often. But if I'm towing a trailer up a grade (like Hwy 120 between Lee Vining and Tioga Pass) inevitably someone thinks by tailgating me I will somehow magically start to drive faster. I try not to get too upset at them. For me it's just a sign of their immaturity. I just patiently drive until I can safely pull off the road and let them pass. I just hope they don't try to pass me where it's unsafe and illegal to do so. That's when accidents happen.

(But I also wish that some of these drivers who want to pass me, would do so when IT IS SAFE AND LEGAL to do so like on long straightaways with a dashed center line, instead of waiting for me to pullover because sometimes there aren't any turnouts large enough for a vehicle towing a trailer to pullover for several miles.)

Quote
plawrence
I agree. It's very annoying (and disturbing) when some hotshot driver comes up fast behind you and then starts tailgating you immediately without waiting for you to arrive at a pull-out where you can safely pullover. It's especially annoying when that happens inside of a National Park, where speed limits are set intentionally lower for added protection for the wildlife and fellow park visitors. There's not much one can do except to pull over at the first SAFE location you come across and let them go on their way.

They also need to understand that a safe location is not one where half the car is still in the lane of traffic.

Quote

Fortunately, when I drive close to the posted speed limit that doesn't happen too often. But if I'm towing a trailer up a grade (like Hwy 120 between Lee Vining and Tioga Pass) inevitably someone thinks by tailgating me I will somehow magically start to drive faster. I try not to get too upset at them. For me it's just a sign of their immaturity. I just patiently drive until I can safely pull off the road and let them pass. I just hope they don't try to pass me where it's unsafe and illegal to do so. That's when accidents happen.

There are several "passing lanes" on the Tioga Road that I will not use. They are way too short and not a clear view of oncoming traffic.

Quote

(But I also wish that some of these drivers who want to pass me, would do so when IT IS SAFE AND LEGAL to do so like on long straightaways with a dashed center line, instead of waiting for me to pullover because sometimes there aren't any turnouts large enough for a vehicle towing a trailer to pullover for several miles.)

I try to keep that in mind with large vehicles. I can understand not pulling over on a steep uphill grade. But, come on, passing a long downhill pullout with a long line of cars being held up is nothing but disrespect for those behind you. It's being a Road Hog which is now considered aggressive driving. I'm not accusing you of doing this, I'm just speaking in general.