Re: Obama Administration Agrees To Halt Rule Allowing Guns In National Parks

And this will halt what, exactly?

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Vince
And this will halt what, exactly?

I think that the other thread "Guns in National Parks" may have the text to the original Bush document and it may contain the other document petitioning to halt the aforementioned document.

QB

So, in other words, nothing's changed.

I have stayed largely quiet on this issue, but I am actually of two minds. On one hand, the individuals who have been issued concealed weapon permits are scrutinized for criminal and psychological disqualifications and often have formal firearm training above and beyond the norm - before they are issued the permit. Further, I believe the State of Texas has kept a record of violent offenders, and the incidence of concealed weapon permit holders among the violators is extremely small. They generally are not a source of trouble.

My personal experience is that most park visitors are so out of their element in a national park that they should not be given license and opportunity to potentially plink, shoot at park animals or another human. I entered the closed society of law enforcement officers in July, 1970 in Yosemite, moved to Yellowstone in 1974 and have been a Wyoming peace officer for almost 27 years. I still comply with the NPS regulations prohibiting firearms, albeit nervously. I still recall standing on the footbridge near Housekeeping Camp while several young men compared notes on the firearms that they had brought with them. I believe my service weapon was being stored in Merced at the time, and I felt vulnerable.

As for the Brady group, I simply choose to not believe a word they say on their motives or rationale, and I believe our nation would be a better place if they disappeared.

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Dearborn
IFurther, I believe the State of Texas has kept a record of violent offenders, and the incidence of concealed weapon permit holders among the violators is extremely small. They generally are not a source of trouble.

My personal experience is that most park visitors are so out of their element in a national park that they should not be given license and opportunity to potentially plink, shoot at park animals or another human. .

It is always so refreshing to read rational commentary on such a highly controversial/emotional topic such as this. I have pretty much held to the reasoning that law-breakers are not going to hold themselves up to the scrutiny of permits and such, so they are naturally going to slip through the system.....on the other hand, I absolutely agree with you that city-folk who are normally frightened by a spider(inside joke) might go ballistic when confronted by a chance encounter with anything larger than a rat.

Thank you for sharing the wisdom of your experiences.

B

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Dearborn

As for the Brady group, I simply choose to not believe a word they say on their motives or rationale, and I believe our nation would be a better place if they disappeared.

Historically, I thought some of the original issues of the Brady Campaign were favored and promoted by law enforcement organizations. Can you elaborate on why the Brady is now viewed with disfavor by many peace officers?

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

One argument on the gun issue that I haven't heard voiced is that the possession of a gun will tend to undermine the presumption that humans are the "intruders" in the park and tend to justify use of force in human-animal interactions. If someone is charged by a bear, wouldn't the person with a gun be more likely to discharge it rather than bear spray?
Hopefully, the discharge will be for sound effect not to kill the animal, initially.

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

"Discharge for sound effect...?"

I left Yosemite in the early 70's and moved to Yellowstone for three long seasons. I now live on the east side of the park, and I can assure you that I have now heard years of hunters claim that when a grizzly bear hears a gunshot, they come running to claim either the gutpile OR the entire game animal if they can intimidate the hunter. Perhaps Yosemite black bear can be intimidated by the sound of a firearm, but not Rocky Mountain G-Bear. Yosemite black bear are highlyl-accomplished "car clouters," (burglars) however.

The State of Alaska has allegedly been keeping records of bear encounters for a number of years, and they have concluded that the use of a firearm increases your chances of serious injury or death from a charging bear. The use of bear spray, however - in close proximity and full intensity - often results in the bear departing with no permanent injury to either party. If their preliminary indications are substantiated, perhaps we can see fewer bear/human injuries.

The firearms in the parks issue is a classic no-win, and I hesitated to comment at first.

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Dearborn
"Discharge for sound effect...?"

I left Yosemite in the early 70's and moved to Yellowstone for three long seasons. I now live on the east side of the park, and I can assure you that I have now heard years of hunters claim that when a grizzly bear hears a gunshot, they come running to claim either the gutpile OR the entire game animal if they can intimidate the hunter. Perhaps Yosemite black bear can be intimidated by the sound of a firearm, but not Rocky Mountain G-Bear. Yosemite black bear are highlyl-accomplished "car clouters," (burglars) however.

The State of Alaska has allegedly been keeping records of bear encounters for a number of years, and they have concluded that the use of a firearm increases your chances of serious injury or death from a charging bear. The use of bear spray, however - in close proximity and full intensity - often results in the bear departing with no permanent injury to either party. If their preliminary indications are substantiated, perhaps we can see fewer bear/human injuries.

The firearms in the parks issue is a classic no-win, and I hesitated to comment at first.

I am glad that you took the plunge on this issue for this interesting tidbit about the G-bears developing a Pavlovian response to the sound of gunshot -- that just turns everything sideways!

I have found that when talking with gun enthusiasts about the whole issue of guns in the parks, grocery stores, outhouses -- you name it, the crux of the issue tends to circle back to the paranoia of the Second Ammendment somehow disappearing in the next few seconds if there is any scaling back or boundaries on the ownership, carrying, brandishing of said weapons.. I really think that it has very little to do with self-protection.

B

Bee,

I think you hit the nail right on the head. This paranoia regarding loss of 2nd Ammendment rights is at the crux of much discussion over the years and this paranoia is amply and regularly promoted by the NRA. Remember Charlton Heston's "Out of my cold dead hands"? One would think the government troops were on their way to our homes to consficate all guns, leaving us defenseless against every danger on Earth. Quick; stock up on canned goods; bar the windows; lock and load!

Reminds me of campaign humor that was running around when John Kerry was running for president. New Idea for Survival Show Episode: Contestants must drive from one end of Texas to the other in a Volvo with a bumper sticker that says, "I'm gay, I support John Kerry, and I'm here to take your guns".

Jim

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tomdisco
I think you hit the nail right on the head. This paranoia regarding loss of 2nd Ammendment rights is at the crux of much discussion over the years and this paranoia is amply and regularly promoted by the NRA. Remember Charlton Heston's "Out of my cold dead hands"? One would think the government troops were on their way to our homes to consficate all guns, leaving us defenseless against every danger on Earth. Quick; stock up on canned goods; bar the windows; lock and load!
Jim

You don't have to probe too deeply to hit a nerve on this issue. Otherwise reasonable people will completely flip-out on this topic and become worked up, self-righteous, desperately frantic, and frankly furious. It would be more persuasive to me if they could be paragons of Zen tranquility and somehow remain coolly rational, objective and focused on the issue with some tolerance and self-effacing humor. I, personally, hate to see impulsive and angry people with guns.

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

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Dearborn

The State of Alaska has allegedly been keeping records of bear encounters for a number of years, and they have concluded that the use of a firearm increases your chances of serious injury or death from a charging bear. The use of bear spray, however - in close proximity and full intensity - often results in the bear departing with no permanent injury to either party. If their preliminary indications are substantiated, perhaps we can see fewer bear/human injuries.

In the early 80's I was told in Alaska that the best defense was a rifle barrel shotgun with slugs. We did not have pepper spray back then. Glad I never had to employ the firearm option. There have been some recent news reports about the frequency of bear-hunter interactions in the Rockies that have resulted in bear deaths. Didn't occur to me that the bears were attracted to gunshots. Makes sense. Although one would think that bears in National Parks would not be habituated to hunter killed game.

Reminds me of another possible factor: Biologist Bernd Heinrich who wrote a book called Mind of the Raven, discusses the intelligence and problem solving abilities of ravens and has some evidence that ravens direct predators to dead, sick or dying game and perhaps successful hunters.

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2009 06:49AM by Frank Furter.

Frank,

My kneejerk reply to the assertion that law enforcement "organizations" initially supported the Brady campaign is that their remark did not reflect the sentiment of the street officer. For example, the leadership of the Fraternal Order of Police endorsed William Jefferson Clinton, but I don't know of a single officer who stated that they supported him.

I hope you accept this remark with the humor that was intended, but I once heard that if you really want to help law enforcement fight crime, repeal the 4th. amendment on search & seizure. I don't advocate that, by the way.

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Dearborn
My kneejerk reply to the assertion that law enforcement "organizations" initially supported the Brady campaign is that their remark did not reflect the sentiment of the street officer. .

I am relying on memory, but I thought that big city police departments (LA, NY, Chicago) were generally in favor of the bans on semi-automatics, waiting periods, and handgun controls in the early 90's that were associated with the Brady program. Many/all of these regulations have changed over the years. Wikipedia has a not too flattering review of the Brady Campaign and some of the issues that may be the basis for the commonly held disparaging views of that organization. I come at the issue as a healthcare worker and I have seen quite a few senseless injuries from guns over the years.

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

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KATU.com - Portland, Oregon As bears die, hunters and climate change blamed by MATTHEW BROWN Associated Press Writer Originally printed at [url]http://www.katu.com/outdoors/fishhunt/43139492.html[/url] BOZEMAN, Mont. (AP) - Hunters are killing grizzly bears in record numbers around Yellowstone National Park, threatening to curb the species' decades-long recovery just two years after it was removed from the endangered species list. Driving the high death rate, researchers say, is the bears' continued expansion across the 15,000-square-mile Yellowstone region of Montana, Idaho and Wyoming. Bears are being seen - and killed - in places where they were absent for decades. And with climate change suspected in the devastation of one of the bear's food sources, there is worry the trend will continue as the animals roam farther afield in search of food. "Last year may have been one those fluke years," said Chuck Schwartz, a bear biologist with the U.S. Geological Survey. "Last year could be the beginning of a trend."

Yellowstone's 600 grizzlies were removed from the endangered species list in 2007, following a recovery program that cost more than $20 million. If the death rate stays high for a second consecutive year, that would trigger a review of the bear's endangered status. Federal officials say there were 48 bears killed by humans last year, out of 71 total deaths. At least 20 of the bruins died at the hands of hunters who shot bears in self-defense or after mistaking them for other animals. "It's kind of a spur-of-the-moment thing. All you see is a big bear coming at you full speed," said Ron Leming, a Wyoming elk hunter who survived an attack from a 500-pound male grizzly after his father shot it dead with an arrow. "If you play dead he might sit there and eat you," Leming said

. (snip)

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Promoting hunters' use of bear spray - a mace-like substance that deters charging bears - tops the list of non-lethal strategies for handling bears. But some hunters including Leming, who narrowly escaped his bear run-in near Cody, Wyo. last fall, say they would rather rely on a gun. Bear spray, Leming said, is great to have on hand when he's sleeping in his tent. In the woods, he'd rather have a handgun at his side

. (snip)


Copyright 2009 The Associated Press.

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

It always makes me wonder, after listening to some of the arguments, how the rest of us, the ones who don't carry guns, have survived. To hear the discussions, you'd think there are threats everywhere just waiting to attack us, and here we are, helpless. Except that here we are. Alive and well. Kind of shoots holes in that theory. 8^)

I used to take a rifle when we went camping, in case of animals or whatever. Never had a need for it, and haven't even thought of taking it anywhere in at least 20 years, probably longer. Yet somehow I've survived...

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Gary
Yosemite Photo Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/roberthouse/yo

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Sierrafan
It always makes me wonder, after listening to some of the arguments, how the rest of us, the ones who don't carry guns, have survived.

Perhaps we survive by not shooting ourselves?