Does anyone know if you can use more than one at a time, ex....use 3 on 3 liters at once?
I'm using the MP1
July 18, 2009 04:26PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 16 |
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mrcondron
Get a filter. Life's too short to drink that kind of water. Look into the PUR Hiker. It'll filter a liter in about one minute and a drink of filtered water still cold from a stream on a hot day is priceless.
July 19, 2009 08:31AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,876 |
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Bee
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mrcondron
Get a filter. Life's too short to drink that kind of water. Look into the PUR Hiker. It'll filter a liter in about one minute and a drink of filtered water still cold from a stream on a hot day is priceless.
I second that; the first thing that goes into my daypack OR backpack is my filter. I find it interesting that the first thing that a lot of people want to leave behind is their filter when trying lighten the load, but yet they will carry whiskey....go figure!
July 19, 2009 09:23AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,374 |
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szalkowski
I have the feeling that the standard concentration Micropur tabs are massive overkill for backcountry water. Looking at the advertising hype on them, 1 tablet per liter may be about right for Louisiana swamp water. What is the second active ingredient listed on the package? From website pictures, I can read that the first is sodium chloride, but can't make out the second. The discoloration and taste that you are experiencing is probably a byproduct of the chemical reaction that is being used to produce the ClO2 and/or an excessive concentration of the ClO2 or another product of the chemical reaction (reiterate swamp water comment here).
July 19, 2009 09:53AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,876 |
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y_p_w
Chlorine dioxide isn't stable. I'm not sure how effective it would be with cryptosporidium since that takes a while to kill unless you've got UV.
The ingredient is sodium dichloroisocyanurate dihydryte. It generates free chlorine dixoide, but as you suggest the process does end up creating an off taste.
July 19, 2009 10:59AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,374 |
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szalkowski
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y_p_w
Chlorine dioxide isn't stable. I'm not sure how effective it would be with cryptosporidium since that takes a while to kill unless you've got UV.
The ingredient is sodium dichloroisocyanurate dihydryte. It generates free chlorine dixoide, but as you suggest the process does end up creating an off taste.
Thanks for the second ingredient information. (Need it to figure out what the other reaction products are.)
This site provides some good technical information on the properties of ClO2:
http://www.lenntech.com/water-disinfection/disinfectants-chlorine-dioxide.htm
Their claim is that it remains effective for 48 hours; if true, then the decomposition half-life is probably at least 8-12 hours.
FYI, here is also the link to the MIOX website:
http://www.miox.com
Re: Katadyn Micropur Tabs August 25, 2009 10:19PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 22 |
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July 19, 2009 12:16PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,374 |
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Frank Furter
If you are going to use chlorine to disinfect water, why not just use bleach?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite
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July 19, 2009 01:50PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
I would have to look it up, but I believe iodine is generally better against a broader spectrum of infectious agents (some chemicals do better against the organism vs a spore form or cyst, for example). My position was that if you are going to use a chlorine based treatment, bleach for all practical purpose seems adequate. Everything has a downside. Even boiling has limitations.Quote
eeek
Ok, what about iodine?
July 19, 2009 01:59PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,876 |
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Frank Furter
I suppose the best formulation is dehydrated water (just add pure water, and drink).
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Bee
Thanks for all of the links and info! This topic has been making the rounds with both of my hiking goups, and I have not really had the time to research the stats. I use a filter, but in the past, I always carried the iodine tabs for an emergency (on kayak trips). It's a really good topic when there are so many alternatives out there. Someone recently mentioned a "steri-pen" which is based on UV properties -- any comments or experience?
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July 19, 2009 06:59PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,876 |
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eeek
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szalkowski
They don't seem to have worked all the bugsQuote
you have to be REAL careful not to break the quartz (glass) envelope also.
Mercury?
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July 28, 2009 10:53AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,374 |
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girdog
So when it came down to it I could not use the Tabs and feel good about the water I was drinking. I've decided I will be buying a water filter and I think it is the only way to go except in an emergency situation. The thing with the Tabs were that even after sitting for the 4 hours (and more), the water had a yellow tint to it and whenever I opened the cap to my bottle you could see what seemed to be gas vapors escaping...scary!!!
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July 28, 2009 11:05PM | Moderator Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,347 |
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mrcondron
OR
B: Break out the PUR Hiker and inside of one minute quaff down, with water spilling out the side of your mouth and drenching your shirt, your fill of 56 degree clear mighty fine H2O devoid of all particulate matter and all things that can self-propel through water.
July 29, 2009 04:47AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
Re: Katadyn Micropur Tabs July 29, 2009 04:59AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 923 |
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Frank Furter
Has anyone had problems with fractures in the filters from either freezing or just use related trauma like dropping the units? If these develop, do you know that the filter is not working correctly (like water coming out around seals were it is not supposed to appear, for instance)?
July 29, 2009 07:09AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 2,321 |
Re: Katadyn Micropur Tabs August 23, 2009 06:47PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 190 |
August 23, 2009 09:03PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,374 |
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traildad
I am hiking from Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin. I want to buy some sort of water filter for the trip. I see that Katadyn now owns the PUR Hiker. I was looking at the Katadyn filter bottles and am wondering what level of filtration is needed. The high end Katadyn claims to protect against viruses as well as the rest. Do I really need that level of protection? What are the advantages and disadvantages between the PUR Hiker and a bottle filter system? Thanks
Re: Katadyn Micropur Tabs August 23, 2009 10:05PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 190 |
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y_p_w
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traildad
I am hiking from Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin. I want to buy some sort of water filter for the trip. I see that Katadyn now owns the PUR Hiker. I was looking at the Katadyn filter bottles and am wondering what level of filtration is needed. The high end Katadyn claims to protect against viruses as well as the rest. Do I really need that level of protection? What are the advantages and disadvantages between the PUR Hiker and a bottle filter system? Thanks
Now? Proctor & Gamble bought out Pur over 10 years ago and sold of the outdoor products division to Katadyn 5 years ago.
However - P&G did develop a water purification system for developing countries. It's supposed to be really cheap when donated to poor countries, but I've seen some kits sold for the US market and they're very expensive.
August 24, 2009 08:46AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,374 |
This was the system I was referring to. It's supposed to be sold at cost.Quote
traildad
I don't know now from 5 years ago. I saw it referred to as a PUR but when I went to look it up I only found Katadyn. I guess I assumed it was recent since people were still calling them PUR. However I really only mentioned it in passing, I am more interested in finding the best solution for my needs. Any ideas?Quote
y_p_w
Quote
traildad
I am hiking from Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin. I want to buy some sort of water filter for the trip. I see that Katadyn now owns the PUR Hiker. I was looking at the Katadyn filter bottles and am wondering what level of filtration is needed. The high end Katadyn claims to protect against viruses as well as the rest. Do I really need that level of protection? What are the advantages and disadvantages between the PUR Hiker and a bottle filter system? Thanks
Now? Proctor & Gamble bought out Pur over 10 years ago and sold of the outdoor products division to Katadyn 5 years ago.
However - P&G did develop a water purification system for developing countries. It's supposed to be really cheap when donated to poor countries, but I've seen some kits sold for the US market and they're very expensive.
Re: Katadyn Micropur Tabs August 23, 2009 09:43PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 923 |
Quote
traildad
I am hiking from Tuolumne Meadows to Glen Aulin. I want to buy some sort of water filter for the trip. I see that Katadyn now owns the PUR Hiker. I was looking at the Katadyn filter bottles and am wondering what level of filtration is needed. The high end Katadyn claims to protect against viruses as well as the rest. Do I really need that level of protection? What are the advantages and disadvantages between the PUR Hiker and a bottle filter system? Thanks
Re: Katadyn Micropur Tabs August 23, 2009 10:10PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 190 |
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AlmostThere
Iodine isn't effective against crypto, isn't as effective against giardia... same with chlorine bleach, by the time you add enough to kill crypto you are drinking straight bleach.
Steripens require batteries. I sleep with all battery driven objects to prevent dead batteries, and I'm reading more and more reports that not all batteries work well in the 'pen, plus, the thought that all it does is scramble DNA and I'm actually drinking live germs - not reassuring.
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Re: Katadyn Micropur Tabs August 24, 2009 06:17PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 190 |
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Vince
Interesting you brought up UV...it is useful to find fluorescent rocks and scorpions much less kill germs. But does it kill parasites?
August 24, 2009 10:07PM | Admin Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 17,096 |
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Vince
Interesting you brought up UV...it is useful to find fluorescent rocks and scorpions much less kill germs. But does it kill parasites?
August 25, 2009 08:22AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
August 25, 2009 09:47AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,374 |
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Frank Furter
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Ultraviolet Light (UV Light) can be used as a pathogen reduction method against some microorganisms. The technology requires effective prefiltering due to its dependence on low water turbidity (cloudiness), the correct power delivery, and correct contact times to achieve maximum pathogen reduction. UV might be an effective method in pathogen reduction in backcountry water; there is a lack of independent testing data available on specific systems. Manufacturer’s instructions must be followed.
As I have mentioned before, you need to be careful of claims about effectiveness. If a product claims "kills 99.9%" of infectious organisms but there are 1,000,000 organisms in the sample, you still have 1000 organisms left.
Although appealing due to apparent simplicyt, UV light effectiveness depends, at least, on the intensity of the light, volume to be sterilized, solution turbidity, time of exposure, and proper function of a unit that emits an invisible light. Seems like a lot can go wrong.
Re: Katadyn Micropur Tabs August 25, 2009 10:00AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 923 |
August 25, 2009 12:10PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,876 |
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y_p_w
As for the proper function, I believe they typically wire a light (or have some other type of sensor) with the UV in series. If the UV emitter isn't functioning, that's effectively "cutting the wire".
August 25, 2009 01:17PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
Quote
y_p_w
Quote
Frank Furter
Quote
Ultraviolet Light (UV Light) can be used as a pathogen reduction method against some microorganisms. The technology requires effective prefiltering due to its dependence on low water turbidity (cloudiness), the correct power delivery, and correct contact times to achieve maximum pathogen reduction. UV might be an effective method in pathogen reduction in backcountry water; there is a lack of independent testing data available on specific systems. Manufacturer’s instructions must be followed.
As I have mentioned before, you need to be careful of claims about effectiveness. If a product claims "kills 99.9%" of infectious organisms but there are 1,000,000 organisms in the sample, you still have 1000 organisms left.
Although appealing due to apparent simplicyt, UV light effectiveness depends, at least, on the intensity of the light, volume to be sterilized, solution turbidity, time of exposure, and proper function of a unit that emits an invisible light. Seems like a lot can go wrong.
I thought about the same goes for filters - claiming to remove 99.99% of giardia or cryptosporidia cysts. I guess it's probably better than an oil filter that supposedly is about 95-98% effective since they simply can't stay oil starved too long.
I also thought that for the most part the human immune system can tolerate the stray bit of bacteria, giardia, or cryptosporium by wiping it out. Isn't there some sort of "critical mass" required where the pathogen can take hold rather than get purged by the immune system.
As for the proper function, I believe they typically wire a light (or have some other type of sensor) with the UV in series. If the UV emitter isn't functioning, that's effectively "cutting the wire".
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Re: Katadyn Micropur Tabs August 30, 2009 02:14PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 141 |
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mrcondron
Frank,
It all makes good statistical sense as long as you are not in the sample group. A gun with 600 chambers in the cylinder is 100 times less likely to kill you during a game of Russian Roulette but who'd want to play even with the better odds?
I've been on, I think, 18 backpacking trips so far this year and would say I have filtered 6-8 liters of water a day. Each trip averaged three days so 3X18X7 = 378 liters. Filter element $25. 2500/378=6.6 cents per liter. Say 6.6 drinks per liter = 1 cent per drink. No doctor visits thus no medical costs. Am I wasting money?
August 30, 2009 09:01PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 2,321 |
August 30, 2009 09:50PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
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mrcondron
I'm tired. I read your post as proposing no filtering but I see you are pro filtering.
Now where's that fork?
August 31, 2009 01:37AM | Admin Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 17,096 |
August 30, 2009 06:22PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
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Sierrafan
Wow, a lot of hostility toward anyone who doesn't think that filtering is as necessary as the 'experts' tell us it is. One could just as easily use 'lemmings' to describe anyone who follows so-called "expert" advice from government, doctors, scientists, and all the others who are always right. Aren't they...? (Need I go down the list of drugs/pesticides/foods/chemicals that were deemed safe, only to discover later they have killed/disfigured/destroyed lives, or the quality thereof?)
I drink out of the Merced fairly often, but then I don't usually go to Yosemite in summer. I probably wouldn't be as inclined to do so when people are swimming above Vernal, or rafting from Curry, if I was below those places. But given a choice of putting chlorine or iodine in, I think I'd probably take my chances, find a spot that looks like it's free-flowing, and get a drink from there, sans chemicals. UV pens don't impress me...I suppose they work but there are enough tech gadgets that are more useful, and I don't like taking a pen's word for it that the water's OK.
We never called it "drinking smart" or anything else when I learned to drink from rivers in Colorado as a boy, but I suppose you'd call it 'comon sense'. I think 'drinking smart' is Bob Rockwell's term for it, and Bob's a heckuva guy, but like anything else, a fan club forms and the 'fans' get overzealous about it (fan=fanatic). Look at the ultralight people who are ripping the elastic off their underwear (why even bother wearing it?) and counting the grams of everything they take. Same sort of fanaticism, but like peak baggers or folks who must hike every weekend and never do anything else, that's their choice, and they're certainly entitled to it. Hopefully they won't be calling anyone who has elastic in their underwear a lemming, and if not, deserve the same respect, whether we agree or not.
As I mentioned here before, I surf near Morro Rock in central CA, and there are zillions of birds around it, and swallowing a gulp of seawater now and then is inevitable, yet I've never had any digestive issues from it, and no illnesses that could logically be attributed to it. Nor have I had any issues with the river water I drink from the Merced. I do carry a Katadyn Hiker filter, and if I'm drinking from a questionable source that I'm not comfortable with, I'll use it. No need to be a fanatic either way. There is a theory that keeping yourself too clean diminishes your ability to deal with dirt and germs, and considering how immunities develop, there's some credibility to the idea that we shouldn't be overzealous regarding germs, purification, etc. (not meaning we should be negligent of basic sanitation practices either).
So one set of lemmings can be trying to figure out where the water's safe and drink it unfiltered (risky!), another set can take no chances because it's deemed dangerous, and then drink their chlorine or iodine, eat their white bread and spray with their legal pesticides, smear DEET all over their family, drink their artificially-sweetened sodas, eat their Bigmacs from hormoned cattle (at a safe level), gobble down their antidepressants and other pills that are all safe and solve every little issue (many of which are probably caused by the above), while managing their weight through expert-approved diets that change every year, and be the picture of health because they've listened to the experts. Just look at our general population, you'll see how effective this is!
Seems to me, if you are worried about the safety of the water, you should purify it in one way or another; if you're not, because you considered the source, and the conditions, and figured it should be OK, that doesn't make you an idiot (or a lemming), just for going against the advice of government experts.
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mrcondron
Nicely said. Somebody stick a fork in this thread. It's done.
Re: Katadyn Micropur Tabs August 31, 2009 09:18AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 141 |
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Frank Furter
It seems to me that one would want to follow the advice of someone who has studied a problem scientifically for sufficiently long to become an expert rather than the advice of someone who is using intuition, anecdotal evidence, and their "common" sense. No true scientist would argue that they are always right. In fact, the best scientist is always looking for contray evidence or exceptions to the rule to test a theory or observation so that it can be refined and improved to explain the new and contradictory information. Einstein was interested in the "exceptions" to Newtonian physics.
That said, maybe the Sierra waters are more safe than we think. Maybe it is not worth the cost of a filter to purify water. I would be interested in a study of the risk of infection or prevalence of contaminated water in the Sierras. Surely someone has done such a study. You can buy a lot of filters for the cost of treating one infection, however.
It seems like a dangerous manuever to try to guess how much exposure to infected waters will "build up your immunity". It is just not a good way to avoid a gastrointestinal illness. Partly because, after an illness your digestive tract is actually weaker (damaged to the mucosa and elimination of normal flora).
August 31, 2009 11:32AM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 2,321 |
Re: Katadyn Micropur Tabs August 31, 2009 02:52PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 141 |
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mrcondron
Well then I guess we can leave all the water stuff at home, lightening our packs, and then just squeeze the juice out of fresh trail apples.
Come on Gary, you are losing credibility.
August 31, 2009 03:48PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 2,321 |
August 31, 2009 12:18PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,374 |
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Sierrafan
There are things floating and living in that water, certainly. But they're everywhere...germs etc. are on everything, along with other peoples' skin cells, dust mites, and all sorts of evil things, which fortunately, our bodies are designed to cope with in most cases. Such is the case with water. We're MEANT to drink water, it's normal for us as it is for every other animal. And we're the only ones who think we're so special that we need to get every single impurity out of it, and then build plants where we happily add diluted poison (chlorine) to it. Because that's OK, so the experts tell us, and one should not question experts. How do you know that Uncle Elmer's dementia isn't caused by a lifetime of drinking over-chlorinated water from approved, safe, sources? You don't. Think that's silly? How many medical problems have been caused by stuff developed by experts? Take the fiber and nutrition out of a grain, then eat what's left. Talk about digestive nightmares, and the ones from that don't go away, they kill. Extract the sugar from natural products, and dump it in everything you eat. Worried about your health? Take vitamin pills, they'll take care of that. Don't eat fat. Well, eat some kinds, not others. Until tomorrow, when that will all change. Just ask the experts.
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August 31, 2009 02:19PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
Quote
When the "experts" informed us last year of the imminent swine flue disaster, we had folks here wandering around the Thursday night farmer's market wearing breathing masks, and carrying hand sanitizer of their own. No doubt these folks would be filtering their water, should they not have bottled water available. Uh-oh, that bottled water is stored in plastic, which raises other issues of safety along with environmental concerns... Boy, that was some epidemic, good thing we have the experts.
....
There are things floating and living in that water, certainly. But they're everywhere...germs etc. are on everything, along with other peoples' skin cells, dust mites, and all sorts of evil things, which fortunately, our bodies are designed to cope with in most cases. Such is the case with water. We're MEANT to drink water, it's normal for us as it is for every other animal............... Don't eat fat. Well, eat some kinds, not others. Until tomorrow, when that will all change. Just ask the experts.
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Re: Katadyn Micropur Tabs August 31, 2009 06:06PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 190 |
August 31, 2009 06:25PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,374 |
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traildad
I'm all for drinking water. Its the stuff that's in it that I don't want to drink.
Facts and Figures: Water and Health
Water-related diseases are a growing human tragedy, killing more than 5 million people each year - 10 times the number of people killed in wars. About 2.3 billion people suffer from diseases linked to dirty water. Some 60% of all infant mortality worldwide is linked to infectious and parasitic diseases, most of them water-related.
http://www.wateryear2003.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=1600&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html
It is all those vile additives that save so many lives that some think are evil. Go figure.
Re: Katadyn Micropur Tabs August 31, 2009 09:30PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 190 |
August 31, 2009 10:34PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,374 |
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traildad
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y_p_w
Once the additives are in place, they can be effectively removed...
To be more clear, (pardon the pun), I meant I don't want to drink any disease causing micro-organisms. It is not the life saving water treatment I was referring to.
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September 04, 2009 05:29PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,942 |
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abenebbish
Dip and Drink.
I have never used a filter, never will. Bugs are good for you.
If you can't see it, it can't hurt you. That is my motto.
September 04, 2009 05:54PM | Admin Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 17,096 |
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Frank Furter
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abenebbish
Dip and Drink.
I have never used a filter, never will. Bugs are good for you.
If you can't see it, it can't hurt you. That is my motto.
This was a common view of the world in the 1600's.
You have missed the last 350 years of scientific development.
Read about Antonie Philips van Leeuwenhoek.
September 04, 2009 06:17PM | Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,918 |
September 04, 2009 07:00PM | Moderator Registered: 15 years ago Posts: 1,347 |
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bill-e-g
I produce plenty of "bad air".... especially after stopping for an egg-fart-muffin at Mikkie-D's
in Oakdale on the way to the park.
There are a select few out there that have first-hand experience.
This is whatlooked like on the way into HH :