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Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks

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avatar Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 06, 2008 01:06PM
As if no one goes to a National Park without one?

I doubt anyone will notice the difference.

SF Chronicle article here.

avatar Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 06, 2008 02:30PM
personally, i'm glad in a way... too many looney toones out there. you know they have them, so why can't those of us who are normal have one for protection? i can see both sides of the issue, but i'm glad i have the choice now.
avatar Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 06, 2008 02:36PM
question....

once guns are allowed in the park, how will you be able to bring them in without it being considered concealed?
avatar Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 06, 2008 04:45PM
>>once guns are allowed in the park, how will you be able to bring them in without it being considered concealed?<<
Just wear a holster on the hip or use the "Easy Rider" Rifle rack option.
Guns can be legally carried openly in the most amazing circumstances-- hospitals, streets, vehicles. Remember when the Black Panthers legally carried guns into the California State Legislature?
FF
from Montana





The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 06, 2008 02:59PM
Bush adds yet another assurance that he'll go down in history as a complete idiot. Good thing no one suggested that they dam up Yosemite Valley to make a reservoir for L.A.

I see senator Crapo supported it...seems fitting.8^) I've seen and known way too many cops that oughta be convicts instead...more corrupt and dishonest than the people they lock up...now they can carry their guns with the government's blessing. Whooppee, now we're all safe.





Gary
Yosemite Photo Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/roberthouse/yo
Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
January 05, 2010 08:58PM
damn that pesky Bill of rights. i hate living in a free country, don't you?
Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 06, 2008 03:25PM
Gee now I'll have to look around to see if someone is pointing something at me that could end my life. I thought once I entered the park I had a few days to live in a world without lethal weapons. But thanks to Georgie boy now I get to be scared even in the park. There's no escaping now.
avatar Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 06, 2008 04:38PM
>>personally, i'm glad in a way... too many looney toones out there. you know they have them, so why can't those of us who are normal have one for protection? i can see both sides of the issue, but i'm glad i have the choice now.<<
1. Nothing worse than a looney with a gun, now legally.

2. I would be willing to bet that more accidental injuries will occur from these guns than attacks by animals or muggers thwarted.

3. The concept of choice is similar to the smokers argument that they should have "right" to smoke-- unfortunately their choice impacts others, as the gun issue does (far more accidental injuries occur than true self-defense crime prevention actions)

4. I can only imagine the following reasons for a gun neither of which options apply in Yosemite:
a. when field dressing or packing out an animal in grizzly country.
b. when hiking in grizzly country in late fall during the feeding frenzy prior to hibernation.

5. Of course, shoppers in Toy R Us have found guns helpful in resolving disputes.
FF





The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
avatar Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 06, 2008 06:50PM
Forrest, the way I read the article (which is San-Fran liberal biased but you really have to pay attention to the wording to get it)...

You need a concealed carry permit to be allowed to have a loaded gun in the parks. Otherwise you're illegal. I'm not sure if a Nevada (where I live) permit applies in California, though. Nevada hands out concealed permits quite...ahem....liberally.

I carry a handgun in my backpack but it is not loaded and the ammo goes underneath all the camping gear in the back of the truck.

Though I have not needed to use a gun against another human (only cans of creamed corn, see here for more) I have been told that if someone is giving you trouble usually they are gutless and all you have to do is show a weapon and they'll go away. Like I said, not speaking from experience.

Now, having said that, I'll address any questions anyone has about guns. I see the argument about operator error and I agree with it. I'm sure you all saw the story about the 8-year-old kid with the out-of-control Uzi and this week's indictments against the adults whose actions led to the kid's death.

Guns are not to be feared. They are tools, nothing more nothing less.

The notion that Yosemite or other National Parks will turn into a lawless wild west is silly. In my wild west imagination I could see someone on the Half Dome cables wanting to honk his 170-grain horn...

...and have several dozen P220's pointed right back...wow what an imagination I have.

OK awake now. Like I said above, I doubt anyone would notice I even have a gun in Yosemite, and most of the time I forget about the fact there's a gun nearby anyway. I have never taken my handgun on a hike, it weighs 4 lbs!

I think 99.999999 percent of the time in a park or even not in a park, you can talk to someone you don't know and fire up a conversation and do lots of hey how are you doing type thing and be on your way. And maybe they have a gun, maybe they don't. But the conversation is good, people smile a lot when you're not a threat. And who doesn't like talking about the weather?

As for Looney Tunes types, hey I'm one of 'em, depending on the subject. But, you would really have to do something completely out of the ordinary (i.e. stupid) for me to go pointing a gun at you. More than likely I'll just hit the gas and watch you get small and then disappear in the rear view mirror while I make a bee-line to the ranger station. And in Yosemite you can use a cell phone, too.

W. made a decision that O. can reverse in January. It's not a big deal. Whether or not you can have a gun in Yosemite (or SEKI, my more favorite place) doesn't really matter to me. I'll have one anyway, and no one will care as long as no one makes me have to use it. In really crummy circumstances, I would pull it out and use it to defend someone else and not me.

And don't even start about shooting bears, deer and squirrels. My Canon G6 shoots them dead, dead, dead.
avatar Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 06, 2008 08:18PM
>And don't even start about shooting bears

I remember an incident where a guy decided to shoot at a Yosemite bear. He was fortunate to hit a tree and not a camper since it was in a Valley campground at night.

avatar Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 06, 2008 09:09PM
I suspect the park rules will default to the state where the park is located for ease and consistency of enforcement.

>>I have been told that if someone is giving you trouble usually they are gutless and all you have to do is show a weapon and they'll go away. <<

You need to read the laws on brandishing and assault. Its a misdemeanor even with an unloaded weapon to display a weapon in a threatening manner (even allowing someone to see your concealed weapon as method of intimidating them)


>>I carry a handgun in my backpack but it is not loaded and the ammo goes underneath all the camping gear in the back of the truck.<<

In California it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon with barrel less than 16 inches, even unloaded, without a permit except in certain locked containers. You can carry an unloaded concealed shotgun however. You cannot carry an unconcealed, loaded weapon in public places not involved with hunting or shooting sports unless you are a police office.

>>. made a decision that O. can reverse in January. It's not a big deal.<<

Don't count on it. There are reports that the actions of W. including liberalize rules for mountaintop mining in W. Virginia, are being taken in such a way that the rules cannot be easily reversed. The rulemaking process by "Alfred" W. Bush (Alfred E Neuman) has been advanced to a point that is apparently unlikely to be changed by Obama.

FF
avatar Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 07, 2008 07:35AM
As Vince implied, one of the most pragmatic reasons not to carry a gun while hiking is the weight! It's just dumb!

As for other places in the park, I have a difficult time imagining when carrying such a weapon would be justified. IMHO the rangers are the only ones who have any business having access to firearms in Yosemite, concealed or otherwise. I'm into hiking, not law enforcement.

Jim

avatar Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 07, 2008 08:07AM

After living in Alaska for 3 years and Montana for 20 years, I understand the value of a backcountry gun but I am concerned that weapons carried more liberally in the backcountry where grizzlies or polar bears are present would tend to encourage sloppy technique in food or consumable storage.

I see no value (and many dangers) to a weapon in public areas of parks. I do think that my personal right to carry a grenade or a personal tank of chlorine gas is compromised by the current regulations.

FF





The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 07, 2008 01:12PM
I haven't heard of any major crime wave in National Parks, so it appears Bushy is just doing some personal chores and favors before he hits the road. I figure if it's not broke, don't fix it, and things seem to work fairly well as they are. So he's "fixing" it anyway, dumb idea, but then consider the source.





Gary
Yosemite Photo Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/roberthouse/yo
avatar Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 08, 2008 11:21AM
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12020.php

12031. (a)(1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.


It goes on to describe concealed carry as an exception.

I'm pretty sure all of Yosemite is considered unincorporated. "Prohibited area" seems to be vaguely worded as a place where it would be illegal to discharge a firearm. I take it that might mean a crowded place such as Yosemite Village. I'm sure that under the previous rules, because the feds considered it illegal, it was also illegal under California law.

One can be licensed to carry a loaded weapon in public, such as security guards.

Once I actually saw someone get arrested for changing his oil in a business parking lot. He had a revolver in a holster. At the time I wasn't sure if it was because it was illegal to change the oil, but now that I think of it, he might have been in violation of the loaded weapon provision if it was indeed loaded. This was an incorporated city.
avatar Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 08, 2008 05:53PM
There are several variables to consider: handgun vs rifle/shotgun; loaded vs unloaded ; concealed vs openly displayed; public vs private; in a locked or unlocked container; in area that is incorporated vs unincorporated.

I believe that it is illegal under any circumstances to have in your possession a concealed handgun outside your personal home, your own land, or your place of business (perhap other specific exceptions) whether loaded or unloaded and regardless whether the public or private property is in an incorporated or unincorporated area without a concealed weapon carry permit.

Interestingly, a law enforcement organization has come out against the new rules:

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2008/01/association-national-park-rangers-opposes-change-gun-laws-parks

FF





The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
avatar Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 09, 2008 10:41PM
Anyone here can quote open carry law?
avatar Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 10, 2008 12:22PM
Vince wrote:

> Anyone here can quote open carry law?

Gun laws are complex but I found this:

12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a
prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

avatar Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 10, 2008 02:35PM
Try these links. The summary of laws pdf is 55 pages.

http://www.californiaopencarry.org/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf

http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/p/gunlaws_ca.htm

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2007.pdf (summary of laws)

FF





The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
avatar Re: Guns will be allowed in National Parks
December 12, 2008 09:50PM
It is interesting that laws against open carry seem to be more strict than concealed carry. Not sure what part of the Second Amendment the government doesn't understand.
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