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Re: Backpack weight management

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avatar Backpack weight management
April 09, 2009 08:00PM
For my upcoming trip in July I originally planned to have nothing more than a poncho and nylon windbreaker in the event of rain while on the move. After reading various inclement weather stories I decided the poncho might be O.K. for protecting the pack but not very effective for me, especially the lower half. With great reluctance I purchased a two piece cheapo clear vinly rain suit in case I find myself slogging thru rain coming at me sideways.

The poncho weighs 12 ounces; the hooded rain suit weighs 22.5 ounces; the windbreaker weighs 12 ounces. That's nearley 3 lbs devoted to wet weather protection. Too much!

There is no way I will part with the hooded windbreaker because it has other uses beside just keeping me dry. I'm thinking of putting it to a garden hose live test to see if it will keep me dry enough in driving rain. If it does then I can eliminate the top half of the rain suit and its 9 ounces. The poncho could be replaced with a Gregory rain cover for the pack (a Gregory Baltoro 70). This would yield a net loss of another 6 ounces since the cover weighs 6 oz. This would bring me down to about 2 lbs for wet weather protection provided the windbreaker is really that waterproof!! The heaviest piece is the rain suit pants at 13.5 ounces.

Are there other ways to approach this that I'm missing to hold down weight? I may not run into any rain at all but if I do it could become darned miserable if I'm not prepared. The comfort level of the Gregory is extraordinary compared to some other packs I tried and is designed to carry much heavier loads than my 35-lb target (including water) but it weighs 5-lbs itself.

I would be interested in what some of you veterans have found works best for lightweight rain gear protection without breaking the bank.

avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 09, 2009 08:38PM
I hate hiking in rain gear because I get as wet or more from sweat as from the rain. I tend toward quick dry clothing, giant plastic bags and packing stuff in individual bags in a pack lined with a large plastic bag. The big plastic bags are cheap, light and excellent survival items for the rare situation where you need shelter. A really big hat helps.



Post Edited (04-09-09 20:53)



The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 09, 2009 09:34PM
James,
In my nearly 30 years of backbacking in Yosemite I've only been "caught" once and that was my fault. I was at Beehive Meadow and was slow to set up my tent. A cloudburst hit and I was soaked before I got the tent up. It was warm though and I was dry in a few hours after hitting the tent. Not cold either.

You will know if it is going to be raining all day because you will have been paying attention to the weather forecast for the days you will be hiking. The afternoon thundershowers are easy to see coming so you just pitch early or take shelter under your poncho until it passes over. If you hike with rain gear on you will get just as wet inside the gear from sweat as you would if you had no gear on at all. I've found rain gear is only effective after you have stopped hiking so the lightest set is the easiest to carry. A rain cover for the pack is good. As Frank Furter said it is a good idea to have your stuff in plastic bags inside your back if you know you will be getting rained on.
Generally rain in July is warm enough so you don't have to worry too much about getting a little wet. Have a set of dry clothes, a shirt anyway, to change into after you pitch.





Old Dude
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 09, 2009 10:08PM
Tomdisco:> I would be interested in what some of you veterans have found works best for lightweight rain gear protection without breaking the bank.<

I am a veteran, but definitely not in the backpacking category (overnight is my longest duration with a Gregory pack), however, I work hours apon hours in the rain (six hours in driving rain today). I have tried every combination known to cavewoman, and I have settled on lightweight fleece pants. At 63 degrees and total soak, I was still dry in less than 20 minutes with a light breeze. I use a light waterproof jacket that allows for layers underneath.

PS I realize that you will be packing in July, but you may be like me and carry one lightweight garment for warmth at night no matter the season, so fleece is my choice..

B



Post Edited (04-09-09 22:15)



The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 09, 2009 10:26PM
Jim,
From July thru September-ish you can leave the rain pants, poncho, and
pack cover at home. Chances are very great that you'll be able to sleep
under the stars too.
I bring a couple of garbage bags for emergencies and a hooded rain jacket/wind breaker.
Fast drying clothes are critical. Fleece pants and fleece pullover/jacket for
warmth after stopping.
Extra socks if your feet sweat or you get them wet.
I bring my secret weapon... the pee bottle... although I did have an
accident recently where I pee'd my tent.

My rain jacket/wind breaker and pants weigh 14 oz total.
Marmot Precip Jacket. GoLite Reed Pants.

Of course you probably want to sleep in a tent until the mosquitos die off..
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 09, 2009 10:31PM
Bill-e-g: I bring my secret weapon... the pee bottle... although I did have an
accident recently where I pee'd my tent.

I don't think you need an apostrophe in this case...?

I hope Mike has his own tent...!

B
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 09, 2009 10:50PM
I do! I do!





Old Dude
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 05:14AM
Bee wrote:

> Bill-e-g: I bring my secret weapon... the pee bottle...
> although I did have an
> accident recently where I pee'd my tent.
>

No worries. Urine is normally sterile.





The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 09, 2009 11:45PM
bill-e-g wrote:

> From July thru September-ish you can leave the rain pants,
> poncho, and pack cover at home.

I had rain for three days straight in August a few years ago.

> Chances are very great that you'll be
> able to sleep under the stars too.

Just you and those blood sucking insects that is.

avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 09, 2009 10:57PM
Sorry but I have to test my new found ability to get pics into a post.



It works. Ignore this picture. It is not meant to to start anything.



Post Edited (04-09-09 22:58)



Old Dude
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 09, 2009 11:00PM
mcondron: Sorry but I have to test my new found ability to get pics into a post.


WHEW!!! For a second, I thought that it was going to be a picture of Bill-e-g's tent -- post accident!!!

B
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 09, 2009 11:36PM
Bee,
Warning! Gross picture.
Note the infamous blue capped bottle. Sorry about the size of the picture, I'm still learning. Is this better?
This wasn't the spill trip. I didn't have a camera on that one.






Post Edited (04-10-09 00:01)



Old Dude
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 09, 2009 11:41PM
mcondron: Sorry about the size of the picture, I'm still learning.

MIKE!! Talk to the Master Eeekster or bill-e-g about downsizing...my poor dialup actually took a dump trying to download yer pic..!

(NOT that I am in any great hurry to see THEE bottle, mind you!)

B
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 09, 2009 11:47PM
mrcondron wrote:

> Sorry but I have to test my new found ability to get pics into
> a post.

That that Half Dome?

avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 09, 2009 11:54PM
Ignore this picture it's not meant to start anything. Yes it is Half Dome just about in the middle of the picture.





Old Dude
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 12:06AM
mrcondron wrote:

> Ignore this picture it's not meant to start anything.

Oh, it's way too late for that!

avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 12:33AM
poor Mike -- of all the pictures to choose...........
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 05:10AM
mrcondron wrote:

> Sorry but I have to test my new found ability to get pics into
> a post.
>
>
>
> It works. Ignore this picture. It is not meant to to start
> anything.
>

>
> Post Edited (04-09-09 22:58)
My initial reflex was to look for Half Dome in the picture.





The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 12:42AM
tomdisco wrote:

> my 35-lb target (including water)


I'm guessing that you don't want to be mistaken for Norman Clyde.

Seriously, I agree with most of the replys posted above (the ones that actually respond to your query): lose the wet weather gear.

Actually, I'm not the best person to ask about this since I'm extremely reluctant to carry any unless I'm virtually assured of torrential rainfall. Since I prefer hiking in shorts (in all but whiteout conditions) and don't give a damn if my legs get wet, my preference is a poncho that fits over the pack.

(By the way, I had to chuckle at your weight target since I once carried back 35 lbs. of quartz from the Jenny Lakes Wilderness area to Lodgepole in Sequoia. I was on a loop hike over Silliman Pass and back through the JLW. Came across an area that had double-refrigerator size outcroppings and filled up the extra space in my pack with pieces that had broken off - weighed them when I got back home.)



Post Edited (04-10-09 01:04)



THE YOSEMITE POST
Voice of the Rocky Marmot Empire
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 06:58AM
>No worries. Urine is normally sterile.

It turns out that it does indeed taste salty.
I also found out not only does my sh*t not stink, neither does my pee.
winking smiley

Queenie is probably making a "Bee"-line out of this post now...
smiling smiley
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 07:26AM
Bill-e-g: Queenie is probably making a "Bee"-line out of this post now...

THAT's IT -- I am NOT eating breakfast and reading this post at the same time, anymore!!! (last time it was a big pile of bear doo-doo)

TMI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

QB
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 08:21AM
Folks,

Thanks for the input. I'm now leaning toward using either a garbage bag liner or Gregory rain cover for the pack, no vinyl rain gear, and walking in my convertible pants with pant legs removed in warm rain. I will also look into the Golite Reed fleece pants as a possibility. I've got a Smartwool pullover for keeping warm under a shirt and windbreaker if necessary when I hit camp. Also, my hiking hat is one of those floppy things that cover the ears and part of the neck from direct sunlight. The windbreaker is hooded.

It's been many years since I've backpacked Yosemite, at which time I always slept under the stars during the summer. We were convinced it never rained in California after May but now know that's not entirely true, especially in the mountains. The only time I used a tent (in early May) it rained and then dropped 8" of snow on us between Vernal and Nevada Fall back when that location was O.K., I think.
Got a small tent for this trip because of mosquitos and also need to avoid the scenario of huddling miserably under a tree in the middle of the night if it does rain.

The 35-lb target set for the pack is for the sake of my other statistic which will turn 64 in June. By the end of the day, 35-lbs will feel like 70 regardless how comfortable the pack rides.

The only other really annoying weight item is the 2.7 lb Garcia canister but that can not be avoided.

Again, thanks for the suggestions.

Jim

avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 09:23AM
Lookie here:
http://www.bareboxer.com/products.htm

Good for 2-3 days with no problems. It's smaller size makes for a tidier pack also.

For longer trips the larger can's extra weight gets lost in the weight of the food.





Old Dude
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 11:33AM
Mike,

Thanks, I'm aware of this smaller bear can option but don't want to spend money on something that will not cover me for some later 5-nighters in the early planning stage. It's also got to fit coffee, sugar, toiletries, deet, sunscreen, and bags of used toilet paper.

Jim
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 12:36PM
Do not put your bags of used TP in your bear can. Nothing good can happen but some bad things can.

Let me expand.

Here's what I have as a kit:
Very basic fanny pack to contain this stuff
Latex gloves (usually about 1.5 or two per day expected on the trail)
Adult butt wipes in a one gallon freezer type ziplock bag (unscented preferred)
small zip lock bags (sandwich size)
One quart ziplock bag (freezer type for durability)
One gallon ziplock bag (freezer type for durability)

Method:

-Dig cat hole with hiking sticks
-Get out one latex glove, one small ziplock bag, one or two butt wipes, the one quart bag, and the one gallon bag out of the very basic fanny pack
-Put the latex glove on
-Expel
-Use butt wipe
-Wad butt wipe up in hand that is wearing the latex glove
-Pull latex glove over the hand capturing the buttwipe in the latex glove
-Put the glove in the small ziplock bag
-Put the small ziplock bag into the one quart ziplock bag
-Put the one quart ziplock bag into the one gallon ziplock bag
-Put the gallon ziplock bag back into the very basic fanny pack

-Pour some water or pee into the cat hole that contains the expelled element
-Stir cat hole contents with a stout stick mixing in dirt until it is nicely mixed (shit soup) This speeds the breakdown to a few days instead of week or months
-Fill cat hole leaving the stir stick stuck in the hole indicating that "This spot has been taken" This also prevents having the stick just laying around.
-No toilet paper has been used and you are as close to daisy fresh as you can get.

-Don't forget to pull your pants up.



Post Edited (04-10-09 13:20)



Old Dude
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 02:07PM
Mike,

I want Bee to accompany me so she can hold the flashlight and read the lengthy instructions to me. This will also induce sufficient sound effects from her to prevent me from dozing in the process and falling into the hole or onto the stick. I"m going to duck now.

Jim

avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 05:47PM
Tomdisco: Mike, I want Bee to accompany me so she can hold the flashlight and read the lengthy instructions to me. This will also induce sufficient sound effects from her to prevent me from dozing in the process and falling into the hole or onto the stick. I"m going to duck now.


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG...I cant belive that this is out public since 2 something!!!!!! I know your schedule in July!!!! Maybe you fall in a hole with the stick to mark the spot...!!!!!

(i got nervous, uneasy, dreaded what sort of cesspool bill-e-g was stirring up over here)

QB
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 06:03PM
mrcondron wrote:

> Do not put your bags of used TP in your bear can. Nothing good
> can happen ...
>
That is solid gold advice!





The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 08:31PM
tomdisco wrote:

> Thanks for the input. I'm now leaning toward using either a
> garbage bag liner or Gregory rain cover for the pack, no vinyl
> rain gear, and walking in my convertible pants with pant legs
> removed in warm rain.

I might suggest having a pair of dry socks. Shorts on the Mist trail, combined with a garbage bag or poncho can leave you with very uncomfortable wet socks.

Mornings can be pretty cold. The mist trail's mist feels good often at midday, but early in the morning...even with quick-dry clothes, I'd use at least a poncho.





Gary
Yosemite Photo Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/roberthouse/yo
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 08:39PM
Gary,

Way ahead of you on the spare socks.

Jim
Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 11:45AM
After reading some of these posts, a single person tent sounds really good.

As for rain gear, I have some nice rain pants. They are more bulky, but if rain is probable, I bring 'em. The vinyl stuff is for emergencies only. You end up almost as wet from your own perspiration.
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 02:20PM
I just pooped my pants.

(from laughing)
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 02:25PM
What!?





Old Dude
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 02:26PM
Seriously, I'll knock it down to fewer steps:

- dig cathole with hiking sticks (quicker than stupid plastic shovel)
- soft serve into cathole
- find a smooth stick and if you've pulled off the soft serve correctly... nothing to wipe ... otherwise wood is good ... wipe with wood
- pour water into hole and stir up sheeet soupso...
- cover hole

I don't think QB is gonna be anywhere near this fiasco.
Plus I'm pretty sure she isn't reading this post anymore after my tent peeing...

smiling smiley
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 02:28PM
I was temped to include the fast-track version you use but refrained.





Old Dude
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 06:26PM
>solid gold advice

O... I better not.

You see QB... I was just giving some good advice. Nothing else.
smiling smiley

Ok, yes, I nearly soiled myself above though...
smiling smiley

Have a nice Easter Bunny weekend
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 08:34PM
For what reason are you nickle and diming?

I'm pretty sure 1 or 2 oz here and there are really, really boring
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 10, 2009 08:46PM
Vince,

One or two onces here, one or two onces there. Before you know it you are talking real onces. I'm conditioning myself with the pack now at 35-lbs and really don't want to go much over that. 35 is just an arbitray figure but a limit needs to be set somewhere. If I were a minimalist it would be closer to 25 and I would be snacking on bushes.

Jim
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 11, 2009 07:11AM
Looks like I've gone and done the bad deed! Bee has abandoned this thread and is sorely missed. Why do so many women get hung up on crapper humor? Yeh, I'm stereotyping, another bad deed.

Bee, come back. Mike and I miss you. We promise to be good, -----well, maybe, ----sort of. Not really!

Jim

avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 11, 2009 07:24AM
Tomdisco: Bee, come back. Mike and I miss you. We promise to be good, -----well, maybe, ----sort of. Not really!

you cant possibly believe that I am that easily chased away! Eeeek posted some brain candy over on a different thread and I have been feeding on it (it always causes a chain reaction of pulling out old favorite readings)

However....

Yer still in some very hot water...!!

QB
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 11, 2009 08:07AM
Bee wrote:

> Tomdisco: Bee, come back. Mike and I miss you. We promise to be
> good, -----well, maybe, ----sort of. Not really!
>
> you cant possibly believe that I am that easily chased away!


Queenie,

Don't humor them. Eventually they will get bored and go play with their local wasp nest or rattlesnake garden.
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 11, 2009 11:13AM
szalkowski: Don't humor them. Eventually they will get bored and go play with their local wasp nest or rattlesnake garden.

ah, yes, as you may notice, my stabs at both understanding and dealing in basic humor are quite pathetic.

QB
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 11, 2009 11:22AM
szalkowski wrote:

> rattlesnake garden.

Pate Valley?

avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 11, 2009 11:21AM
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 11, 2009 11:30AM
Why, yes, Master Eeek, as a matter of fact, I DO see Jim swimming around in all that steam. I don't think he has been tenderized quite enough; a few more hours might do. I lovely shot I do say!

QB
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 11, 2009 01:01PM
Bee,

Yes, that's me soaking in Yosemite Hot Springs just off the PCT.

Does this mean you really will not accompany me?

Jim
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 11, 2009 01:55PM
I am at a diSTINKED disadvantage on this thread. Any answer to any question is surely to lead me to step in it.

I must ask about this:

<Yosemite Hot Springs just off the PCT>

There is such a place? Is it in Yosemite proper?

QB
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 11, 2009 02:03PM
Bee wrote:

> There is such a place? Is it in Yosemite proper?

There are zero hot springs inside the park.

avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 11, 2009 05:08PM
Bee,

Of course there's a hot springs in Yosemite. It's where all the guys go in the winter to drink beer. Do you really believe they go hiking in snow because they like snow?

Jim
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 11, 2009 05:39PM
tomdisco wrote:

> Of course there's a hot springs in Yosemite. It's where all
> the guys go in the winter to drink beer. Do you really believe
> they go hiking in snow because they like snow?

What are you going to do when her leg comes off?

avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 11, 2009 06:04PM
Bee wrote:


>
> There is such a place?
>
> QB

Yellowstone is the place. It has more thermal features than the entire rest of the world put together, the largest geyser, largest mudpot, the most petrified trees still upright, and REAL bears and WOLVES. The largest high elevation lake, the largest intact ecosystem in North America. It is the greatest of national parks! You probably would have to lump together all the National Parks in California to begin to equal Yellowstone in size and diversity. If you can't get to Yellowstone, Yosemite will have to do (I grew up in California and only reluctantly realized that Yosemite pales in comparision to Yellowstone). This may get me banned from a Yosemite Discussion Forum!





The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 11, 2009 06:12PM
Frank Furter wrote:

> and REAL ... WOLVES



More than are on this thread?
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 13, 2009 02:07PM
Quote
Frank Furter
The largest high elevation lake, the largest intact ecosystem in North America.
Not sure about largest high elevation lake or necessarily an intact ecosystem.

The ecosystem was already broken through the departure of wolves and the decimation of the North American bison. Weren't some of the bison intermixed with captive stock? I heard that some bison were brought in around the 1900s as livestock. I would have thought they would have "contaminated" some of the Yellowstone bison. Of course the wolves were reintroduced in the 90s.

Lake Tahoe is larger than Yellowstone Lake in terms of water volume (more than 10 times) and surface area. Yellowstone Lake does have a lot of fingers and a longer shoreline though. Of course it depends on what you mean by "high elevation". Many think of it as 5000 ft, but I guess an artificial distinction at 7000 ft might give the nod to Yellowstone Lake.
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 13, 2009 02:43PM
Quote
y_p_w
Quote
Frank Furter
The largest high elevation lake, the largest intact ecosystem in North America.
Not sure about largest high elevation lake or necessarily an intact ecosystem.

The ecosystem was already broken through the departure of wolves and the decimation of the North American bison. Weren't some of the bison intermixed with captive stock? I heard that some bison were brought in around the 1900s as livestock. I would have thought they would have "contaminated" some of the Yellowstone bison. Of course the wolves were reintroduced in the 90s.

Lake Tahoe is larger than Yellowstone Lake in terms of water volume (more than 10 times) and surface area. Yellowstone Lake does have a lot of fingers and a longer shoreline though. Of course it depends on what you mean by "high elevation". Many think of it as 5000 ft, but I guess an artificial distinction at 7000 ft might give the nod to Yellowstone Lake.


Wikipedia has a pretty good summary of Yellowstone and environs. A section of the Lamar Valley served as "Buffalo Ranch" to protect some of the last American Bison and I believe they were from inside and outside the park. There are no isolated populations of bison in the Park currently to my knowledge. I don't know if there is any way to tell whether Yellowstone bison are genetically different from "American bison". I am pretty certain there have always been bison in the park.

If I remember correctly, the re-introduction of wolves was argued as appropiate because periodically isolated members of the species would migrate down from Canada. Thus, there was not introduction of an alien species (such as Chinese Ring-necked pheasants) but re-population with a species that had an ancestral home in Yellowstone and made occasional forays into the park. The park wolves were not "extinct" just excluded.

Continuing this discussion, I understand the raccoon has been viewed as a "introduced" species in the Sierras as it apparently followed the emigrants into the Sierras and was not present endemically before the mid-1800s'.

PS: I forgot to mention that there are more than 200 waterfalls in Yellowstone and two species of plant found no where else on earth.



The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2009 02:51PM by Frank Furter.
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 13, 2009 12:08AM
Quote
Bee
There is such a place? Is it in Yosemite proper?

Outside the park near Mammoth:

avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 13, 2009 12:23AM
Look, you even have the moon in the background!! I know this is not the hot springs forum, but I will say that I have been to some of the neatest ones in the world, and I would have been really disappointed if I had missed a chance to enjoy one in Yosemite.....AND...I almost screamed when I saw that this thread had been revived -- I had been happily watching it sink to the bottom of the canyon...eye rolling smiley

B
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 13, 2009 10:35AM
Ellis, Bee, et al,

I hereby pronounce, in total agreement with administrator Rick, that there are no hot springs formations anywhere within the Yosemite Park boundaries. Their prior existance was for the sole purpose of "leg pulling" which has run its course and gone over the falls.

Of course, if you want directions: It's 1/2 mile up the McCabe Lakes trail off the Pacific Crest Trail. Super easy day hike (24.6 miles round trip). Just look for the rising steam. Bring swim trunks.

Jim
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 13, 2009 11:28AM
Dear Jim,

We assure you that there are many people anxiously awaiting your trip in July even more than you.

Sincerely,
Len, Ellis, Bee et al.

(Couldn't resist.)
avatar Re: Backpack weight management
April 13, 2009 11:52AM
Len,

In the interest of backpack weight management, I will not be taking swim trunks.

Jim
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