Re: Can I vent?

so i get a campsite in Upper Pines last night (i'm alone)... when i get there, i realize there is a party going on two sites away from me (the site in between us is empty)... there is about 30 people in one site.. it appeared to be a family reunion or something, so i decide not to be a jerk and let it go and let them do their thing ... so then as i'm sitting around my campfire in the dark, a long line of about 15 people come walking right through my campsite, just 4 feet away from where i was sitting by the fire.. i look up at them like "what the heck?" and they say nothing, not a "sorry" or nuttin'... so now more and more people are coming and going, so i figure there is now at least 50 people in one site! all drinking and being VERY loud, they were so loud that i could hear Aunt Mable's whole life story that she was sharing with everyone ... it's 9:15pm and now i'm ticked cuz more people keep walking too through my site and don't care... so i call a number to complain, i get this young sounding kid on the line who starts defending them.. i said "so you're telling me that these people can be as loud as they want, AND it's ok to have 50 people in one site???!!! something tells me that is not only against park policy, but is illegal"... so he asked me what space i was at, then said he'd send someone out.. so within minutes a park vehicle (NOT a Ranger) pulls up, shines the light in my space and on my FACE! then proceeds to where the obvious party was happening, and doesn't shine it on them, nor even bothers to stop to say anything! he simply drove right by without skipping a beat!!!

one guy in the party has a camera rigged up on a 10 foot pole so he can take photos from up above everyone, and it's flashing the whole time they're partying... so now it's about 9:30pm and they actually start leaving... then a lady in her late 50"s comes up to me and apologizes for the inconvience, she said it was a wedding reception... i told her i accepted her apology, but made it clear to her that i didn't appreciate all of her friends and family walking right through my campsite like i didn't matter or exist.

even though this lady was kind enough to apologize, i still feel like i want to report this idiot park employee for doing nothing!! should i? or am i going overboard?

I would report it.

Jim

I think you should report it, too.

Wow...so sorry you had to put up with such inconsiderate people with NO support from Yosemite staff. I hope you report this.

not sure how to go about it via internet.. i'll look to see if there is a person i can email it to. if any of you have any ideas, please let me know.

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forrestranger
not sure how to go about it via internet.. i'll look to see if there is a person i can email it to. if any of you have any ideas, please let me know.

I have had some success by writing the Superintendent at:


Superintendent Dave Uberuaga

PO Box 577

Yosemite National Park, California 95389

email and other contacts at:

Contact email


http://www.nps.gov/yose/contacts.htm

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

That's too bad; lately I've had pretty positive experiences camping in the valley.

People who don't camp often have no concept that your campsite is your "home" when you're there, and will walk through as if it's just a park...I don't think they're trying to be rude, just don't have a clue. You could always jump up and say "hi, welcome to my campsite, is there something I can help you with?" That might give them the idea. You could even add "How long is your party going to go on? I was planning to go to bed pretty soon, and I know a tent isn't going to be able to keep out all the noise..."

I think you definitely should file a complaint; though 'quiet time' is 10PM, that doesn't mean they can make a racket until then. It seems like whoever drove through should have handled the situation better. In the past when I've had noise problems that became significant, the campground host offered to go handle it himself; another time the ranger went by and had a word with them the next day, which took care of it.

If you have a camera that takes movies, and it gets bad enough, you could always take some movies of their party, with a time stamp. That could work in different ways...they might see you and realize they're being annoying, or if not, or they're too drunk to care, at least you can show the ranger the next morning. If that fails, send the movie on a DVD to the park superintendent and tell him his folks aren't doing their job.

Unfortunately, it only takes one out of a hundred to spoil things. And I've learned, one intoxicated cheerleader-voiced woman who thinks everything's funny can cover 3 or 4 loops in the campground...

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Gary
Yosemite Photo Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/roberthouse/yo

thanks for the info Frank :-)

Overall, these noisy parties are hard to deal with on a one to one basis and you need to get a person with authority to intervene. The problem is you never know how much inconvenience you are going to experience until a lot of time has passed and you have been seriously inconvenienced. Probably better to take action early on. Often the groups assume that if no one complains, everyone is loving the music and conversation. At least they were not in the backcountry.

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

I really like the valley campgrounds, but not for the campgrounds themselves...they're smoky, sometimes noisy (and sometimes peaceful), and certainly not for anyone looking for solitude or wilderness experience. But they are a good place to spend the night inexpensively, with quick access to the valley and all the trails and sights. Hot food nearby (and obviously internet), showers, and folks from all over the world having a good time.

After a couple of nights at Upper Pines (no parties, in fact it was quiet by 9), what I'd like to do without is 1) auxiliary generators (c'mon, can't you get by without 110AC for a night or two?) and 2) Car door lock remotes. Why is it that people don't hear their horns honk...last night some guy kept going back to his car, and repeatedly locked it with the remote, despite the horn. Even the 'tweeters' can be annoying. Guess they've fogotten how to push the button down and avoid treating the whole campground to their horn.

But that's minor stuff...for $20 a night you're in Yosemite Valley for the early morning peace and beauty. And if it gets cold in the evening like it is now, there's a hot shower or the lobby at the Lodge where I'm typing this 8^).

Hopefully, no parties...

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Gary
Yosemite Photo Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/roberthouse/yo

Can't remember where I read it, but somewhere on one of the official Yosemite Government sites it specifically addresses weddings in Yosemite and it specifically bans wedding receptions from the campgrounds.

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mtn man
Can't remember where I read it, but somewhere on one of the official Yosemite Government sites it specifically addresses weddings in Yosemite and it specifically bans wedding receptions from the campgrounds.

Didn't see campgrounds. But picnic areas are on this page:

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/weddings.htm

I've only camped in the valley once, last Feb., and the only complaint about noisy neighbors was the first night a group with a large amount of kids who wouldn't be quiet till well after 10p. Other than that it was a good experience, second night everyone was quiet and we listened to rock and ice fall off Glacier.

There should be a rule that in winter, quiet time is dusk. Usually people are pretty quiet at dawn. Generators are always annoying and should be allowed only between 10a and 2 p.

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Vince
There should be a rule that in winter, quiet time is dusk. Usually people are pretty quiet at dawn. Generators are always annoying and should be allowed only between 10a and 2 p.

None of that does any good unless it is enforced.

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eeek

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Vince
There should be a rule that in winter, quiet time is dusk. Usually people are pretty quiet at dawn. Generators are always annoying and should be allowed only between 10a and 2 p.

None of that does any good unless it is enforced.

well that's the deal, isn't it? What does it take to get the rangers to do anything, especially after hrs? I didn't have a complaint about the kids last winter because they eventually gave up and went to bed. But an unauthorized group like the start of this thread, without anyone to go break it up and say move it off park, is unacceptable.

I think enforcement is the main problem...the rangers and hosts seem completely unaware of generators that run constantly, and will only do something if someone complains. In other words, "do as you like, if someone actually goes to the trouble of complaining that you're violating the rules, we'll probably come and talk to you about it".

But wishy-washy rules are responsible too. The current handout for campsites says "Quiet hours are from 10PM to 6AM. Generator use is permitted sparingly." So you can run your generator (legally) 5 hours after dark and an hour before first light in winter. Sparingly? What exactly does that mean, and when has a ranger ever sat around timing someone's generator use? "Sparingly" to a dedicated RV'er might mean only 16 hours a day instead of all night.

Then, after the 'quiet hour' line is, in 1mm type (the capitals are 1mm high, literally) is a line that says, let's see, where's my magnifying glass..."We recommend not starting generators before 9AM or continuing past 7PM. Please limit run time to less than 45 minutes." So if they can actually read that, it's "recommended" 9AM-7PM; they might as well say "unless there's something good on TV". And 45 minutes? Then what, you shut it off for 15, and start it for another 45?

I would guess this flyer was written by a dedicated RV'er who wants to be able to claim "we tried" but doesn't want anyone in an RV to actually be without 110AC for more than a few minutes. I'd also guess that the hosts (who live in large RV's) don't bother mentioning anything about not using generators as those 30-footers are pulling in. I knocked on a guy's door one night last week and told him the generator rules, he had no clue there was any restriction at all.

Big trailers seem to be the current rage, and people are used to RV parks where they have power all the time. The nicest folks seem to be totally unaware that others may not want to listen to 'chugga-chugga' all day and evening, and you get 2 or 3 of those going in one loop, and you might as well be camped next to the Bayshore freeway.

Even the "little guys" can be a problem; seeing this one, I'd have never suspected he'd have his generator running steadily starting at 7AM, and still after 8 when I took the photo:



Rangers and campground hosts drive through at those hours...ever seen them stop and tell someone to shut off his generator? I didn't think so.

I wish they'd make lower Pines into an RV campground, give them hookups, and have a "no generator, period" rule at Upper Pines. If they want to "camp" there, OK, but if they need TV, forced air heat/AC and their microwave, at least keep them all together and away from tents, who have to listen to their noise even when they're inside.

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Gary
Yosemite Photo Galleries: http://www.pbase.com/roberthouse/yo

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Sierrafan
I wish they'd make lower Pines into an RV campground, give them hookups, and have a "no generator, period" rule at Upper Pines. If they want to "camp" there, OK, but if they need TV, forced air heat/AC and their microwave, at least keep them all together and away from tents, who have to listen to their noise even when they're inside.

Excellent suggestion. Write it up, wrap it up, put a ribbon on it and mail it to the park super.

Jim

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tomdisco

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Sierrafan
I wish they'd make lower Pines into an RV campground, give them hookups, and have a "no generator, period" rule at Upper Pines. If they want to "camp" there, OK, but if they need TV, forced air heat/AC and their microwave, at least keep them all together and away from tents, who have to listen to their noise even when they're inside.

Excellent suggestion. Write it up, wrap it up, put a ribbon on it and mail it to the park super.

Jim

I agree as well. Wonderful idea. Hopefully no deaf ears (so to speak)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2009 05:17PM by Vince.

I was camped in Lower Pines next to a rental RV last June (The worst generator users are RENTAL rv's) and he ran it continuosly in the afternoon right up to dinner time. A rangerette came by with a big smile on her face welcoming us to our campsite and gave us the usual bear rules etc. I listened patiently and when she was finished I said: "Do you hear that?" pointing to my neighbors motor home. I said:
"don't the rules say sparingly"? I told her it had been runnning continuously for the last 4 hours. She went right over there and they turned it off and we didn't have any problem with them the next few days. I understand the pointing out of the rules at the kiosk's about the bears but they need to point out the generator rules also. And the campground hosts need to walk or drive in their golf carts every now and then and LISTEN to what's going on. We shouldn't have to go to them to complain about noise etc., they should be on top of it. This has been a pet peeve of mine for decades, that the campground hosts do not patrol the campground sites. Every year there are people starting fires in the morning in the Valley campgrounds, totally against the rules, yet you never see anyone come around and do anything about it. We shouldn't have to search out rangers and campground hosts to enforce the rules. They should be doing it on their own!!

As far as generators go there should be dedicated loops for generator use and loops that should be generator free, as in Colter Bay campground in the Grand Tetons. Most generator use is uneccesary as most people who run them have no idea why they are running them. Two deep cycle rv batteries will last almost a week for normal things, but some of these people just have to have their microwaves and tv's..........

Personally I'd like to see generators banned form all Forest Service and National Park campgrounds. I have a 24 ft. trailer and with 2 rv batts. that charge while I'm driving, so I don't need a generator as I don't need an air conditioner, or microwave, or TV. Nobody really NEEDS one.

One time at Porcupine Flat an old RV parked near me. It had the noisiest generator I've ever heard on an RV. They ran it all evening, but about 11pm I heard somebody yell, "Turn that thing off!" And off it went!

Yup...Yup. I actually had to yell at a "neighbor" who was running his noisy generator at 10pm last summer in New Shady Rest in Mammoth. After that incident I proposed to the camp host that they should put the RV's and large trailers in Old Shady Rest across the street and leave New Shady Rest to the tent campers.

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btnicholas
After that incident I proposed to the camp host that they should put the RV's and large trailers in Old Shady Rest across the street and leave New Shady Rest to the tent campers.

Perhaps all that would be needed is to have these camp hosts actually do their jobs. I haven't yet seen one worth the campsite he's using. Last time I camped in the Valley I arrived at 5:30pm and nobody was at the booth. When I returned to my site the next afternoon the host had left a nasty note about me not registering. It said to go to the booth during certain hours. Ok, those hours included right then while I was reading the note. So I grabbed my reservation and walked to the booth—nobody there that time either. Never did register that time.

Loud music goes with it. In Kings Cyn @ Sentinel last May had to listen to trumpets and guitars way too loud music for about half hr, these folks had their tents put up and everything, once they were told to turn off their crap music they curled up their tents and left the campground. If you want to play in a National Park, do it right and quit bothering others who are there to enjoy the area without your BS.

I don't know about National Parks but at Forest Service campgrounds in their long list of rules posted on the info board, if you read through all of them, under audio devices, I believe it says something like audio devices should not be played in a manner that can be heard in other campsites, or something like that. I don't know what it is with campers and stereos. I don't understand why people think if they go to a serene place they have to blast their stereo to enjoy it. I once walked over to a loud stereo player a couple of campsites away and held up a cd in my hand. The guy looked at me and said "what's that?". I said. " Since I have to listen to loud music I thought you could play something I want to listen to". He gave me a puzzled look and then the light went on and he said, "Oh, I guess I should turn it down". I thanked him and that was the end of it. Just yesterday I was up in the Los Padres Forest at a place called Rose Valley lake. It's basically a small pond you can drive right up to. I was the only one there, it was very peaceful, ducks quacking in the pond, birds chirping, could hear the wind in the pines. 5 minutes later a pick up pulled up on the other side of the pond. One guy jumps out, casts his fishing pole, and turns on his Mariachi music which of course ruined the whole ambience. What's with people and stereos in the great outdoors.? I guess the great outdoors to them just means taking their noisy lives from home to the great outdoors so they can share thier noisy lives with people they don't know.

I agree that the campground hosts should do more to enforce the rules and keep a campground as peaceful as possible.

Was the CD a certain something by John Cage?

Actually it was John Denver's greatest hits but I like your suggestion better. Or maybe a Vogner?

At least it wasn't a certain U2 concert....that's horrible music

Talk radio all the way...and keep it to yourself.

Of course, this thread should be "May I vent?" We are all capable of venting from multiple orifices.

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

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Frank Furter
Of course, this thread should be "May I vent?" We are all capable of venting from multiple orifices.

Frank gets a gold star for joining the ranks of potty humor enthusiasts.

Jim

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tomdisco

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Frank Furter
Of course, this thread should be "May I vent?" We are all capable of venting from multiple orifices.

Frank gets a gold star for joining the ranks of potty humor enthusiasts.

Jim

Doesn't he get something for being a grammar Nazi?

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eeek

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tomdisco

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Frank Furter
Of course, this thread should be "May I vent?" We are all capable of venting from multiple orifices.

Frank gets a gold star for joining the ranks of potty humor enthusiasts.

Jim

Doesn't he get something for being a grammar Nazi?

Maybe the shark?

Jim

This discussion of questionable airplanes reminds me of my first trip to a remote village in Alaska on a mail plane (Cessna 206 as I recall). First village the plane landed and rolled into a massive mudpuddle that spashed a wave of mud on the windshield. Pilot did not bother cleaning it off. I mentioned the mud before takeoff and he shrugged and said the rain would wash it off soon enough. Next village, a pick up truck carrying mail and packages backed into the fusilage after we landed. Pilot made some joke about flying around in circles after take off. Again, he was not particularly concerned. I survived. After 2 years, that was just an average mail plane flight.

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

That's the Alaskan backcountry for ya. Different breed of people.

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Old Dude

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mrcondron
That's the Alaskan backcountry for ya. Different breed of people.

Which is shown quite well (including flying) in this: http://www.cornhobble.com/am/B000EOTTS6

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Frank Furter
This discussion of questionable airplanes reminds me of my first trip to a remote village in Alaska on a mail plane (Cessna 206 as I recall). First village the plane landed and rolled into a massive mudpuddle that spashed a wave of mud on the windshield. Pilot did not bother cleaning it off. I mentioned the mud before takeoff and he shrugged and said the rain would wash it off soon enough. Next village, a pick up truck carrying mail and packages backed into the fusilage after we landed. Pilot made some joke about flying around in circles after take off. Again, he was not particularly concerned. I survived. After 2 years, that was just an average mail plane flight.

The Cessna 206 is a pretty tough work airplane, despite it's small size. In Rockland, ME thay are used frequently to ferry people and supplies between the mainland and several small islands, most with rather short turf or dirt runways where mud and ice is common. The 206's high horsepower engine combined with variable pitch propellor makes it ideal for very short take-off and landing locations.

Jim

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tomdisco
The Cessna 206 is a pretty tough work airplane, despite it's small size. In Rockland, ME thay are used frequently to ferry people and supplies between the mainland and several small islands, most with rather short turf or dirt runways where mud and ice is common. The 206's high horsepower engine combined with variable pitch propellor makes it ideal for very short take-off and landing locations.

I never made it beyond the Cessna 172. But I did get to fly one over Half Dome and I don't think the cables were up.

I believe that aircraft are restricted to greater than 2000' above the highest point in a park.
Lyell is 13,100 something.
Doing the arithmetic, that's a pretty special 172. A Kelly hot rod?

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wagga
I believe that aircraft are restricted to greater than 2000' above the highest point in a park.

At the time it was 2000' AGL. Not 2000' above the highest point.

So, technically, you could fly over the valley floor at 6000' actual altitude, with Half Dome rising 2800' higher than you?.
Perhaps that's why they changed the rules.

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wagga
So, technically, you could fly over the valley floor at 6000' actual altitude, with Half Dome rising 2800' higher than you?.
Perhaps that's why they changed the rules.

IIRC it was something like that. But it was Grand Canyon that caused the rule change.

8. VOLUNTARY PRACTICES.

a. Avoidance of noise-sensitive areas, if practical, is preferable to overflight at relatively low altitudes.

b. Pilots operating noise producing aircraft (fixed-wing, rotary-wing and hot air balloons) over noise-sensitive areas should make every effort to fly not less than 2,000 feet above ground level (AGL), weather permitting. For the purpose of this AC, the ground level of noise-sensitive areas is defined to include the highest terrain within 2,000 feet AGL laterally of the route of flight, or the uppermost rim of a canyon or valley. The intent of the 2,000 feet AGL recommendation is to reduce potential interference with wildlife and complaints of noise disturbances caused by low flying aircraft over noise-sensitive areas.

c. Departure from or arrival to an airport, climb after take-off, and descent for landing should be made so as to avoid prolonged flight at low altitudes near noise-sensitive areas.

d. This advisory does not apply where it would conflict with Federal Aviation Regulations, air traffic control clearances or instructions, or where an altitude of less than 2,000 feet AGL is considered necessary by a pilot to operate safely.

While looking up the service ceiling of Cessna 172, I got into an article about the plane. Amazingly, it is still in production. Sounds like it is about 30X more expensive than when first produced in the mid 50's. And that is probably just for the base model. Good article in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_172.
At one point they had a version with a constant speed prop ( also called a "175" ) and have been planning a diesel engine.

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2009 05:26PM by Frank Furter.

I'm not a licensed pilot, but I have flown a glider, 172 & Cardinal.

Most of the cost increase in all GA aircraft has been to pay off the insurance & legal industries. As for legal, I do mean industry. Not profession.

If money were no object, I'd be torn between the Diamond twin diesel & the twin Islander. Of course, now that Thielert has gone Tango Uniform, it's moot. Note to Bee: If you don't understand TU, check with your favourite amphibian. If you slap him, it's not my problem.

Although email, etc has become exceedingly useful in establishing client relationships, sometimes personal contact is paramount - and GA's role here is totally undervalued.

Four sentences with four subjects. And I haven't even touched on the 787. End of Post!

The aircraft manufacturers, generally having the deepest pockets to sue, bear the brunt of aviation suits. They can still be held liable for every airplane they have ever built regardless of age. This is another industry that is in dire need of tort reform. One Example: Many years ago a single engine aircraft making a legal landing at a small rural airport collided with a motor vehicle which intruded upon the runway just as the pilot was touching down. The driver of the vehicle was intoxicated. The driver sued for damages and everything else his attorney could think of. Some time later in court the aircraft manufacturer (Cessna) was determined to be at fault because the pilot's seat rails were worn where the forward/backward adjusting pins locked in! The pilot was judged to have been in control of an aircraft with a known defect even though the pilot's seat rails had nothing whatsoever to do with the accident. Since the pilot had no appreciable assets for a large dollar suit settlement his co-defendant (Cessna) took the the hit which of course fell back onto Cessna's insurance company. It's insane but that's the way it works.

I purchased a 1976 year Cessna 172 in the early 80's for $18,000. It's original owner was an instructor pilot so it had dual controls plus the standard stack of 2 Cessna radios, 2 VOR's, plus an Automatic Direction Finder. Pretty basic stuff. That same airplane purchased new around 10 years ago would have cost at least $90,000. without upgraded electronics. I have no idea what it goes for today.

By the way, I sold the plane in '94 for $24,000. without having done anything to it other than routine maintenance. That was because Cessna had not yet reinstated production of the 172 so used airplanes were going for a premium. Some folks might not understand that but used airplanes do not depreciate in value like automobiles do. Maintenance, including anti-corrosion inspection, is dictated by law and most small aircraft engines get a complete overhaul every 2,000 hours or less.

You now probably know more than you ever wanted to know about the small aircraft industry.

It's a good thing the title of this thread is, "Can I vent?" because this post has nothing whatsoever to do with noisy and inconsiderate campers.

Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2009 06:52PM by tomdisco.

There is at least one NP where it is legal for visitors to land. Santa Cruz in the Channel Islands National Park (CHIS)
has a dirt strip. We were taken out there in a Britten-Norman Twin Islander by an agency whose name we are forbidden to reveal.
Perhaps I can find a photo to post.

There is also a dirt strip on San Miguel, not available to visitors.

We were camped there, in magnificent isolation, when an aircraft & a helicopter turned up to install some GPS-based seismic sensors.

I suppose that would be rude & inconsiderate behaviour worthy of venting, but it was daylight & they were doing science. So still on topic?