Re: Why Pack Heat in Yosemite?

What are things that would cause a reasonable person to want carry a loaded firearm while camped in any one of Yosemite's campgrounds or even in the back country?

There is no debate that under the existing law it seems one can legally do it, one can probably do an open carry most anywhere in the park, and one can probably do an open carry into the back country and then carry a loaded sidearm around their campsite.

I just can't get my arms around the "why" part.
Protection? From what?
Because I can? Scary reason.

Benefits of having armed visitors in the park:
1.
2.
3.

Detriments of having armed visitors in the park:
1.
2.
3.

Fill in the blanks

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Old Dude

I can't think of any reasons why. I can think of a lot of reasons why not. Like, some drunk fool will shoot me.

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The Other Tom
I can't think of any reasons why. I can think of a lot of reasons why not. Like, some drunk fool will shoot me.

and they call us gun owners the paranoid ones...

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chiefcrash

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The Other Tom
I can't think of any reasons why. I can think of a lot of reasons why not. Like, some drunk fool will shoot me.

and they call us gun owners the paranoid ones...

Chiefcrash,
Don't lump us gun owners in with you "carry at all costs" guys.

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Old Dude

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mrcondron

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chiefcrash

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The Other Tom
I can't think of any reasons why. I can think of a lot of reasons why not. Like, some drunk fool will shoot me.

and they call us gun owners the paranoid ones...

Chiefcrash,
Don't lump us gun owners in with you "carry at all costs" guys.

only if you don't lump me in with the "carry at all costs" guys...

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chiefcrash

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mrcondron

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chiefcrash

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The Other Tom
I can't think of any reasons why. I can think of a lot of reasons why not. Like, some drunk fool will shoot me.

and they call us gun owners the paranoid ones...

Chiefcrash,
Don't lump us gun owners in with you "carry at all costs" guys.

only if you don't lump me in with the "carry at all costs" guys...

So are you saying that you wouldn't open carry in Yosemite?

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Old Dude

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mrcondron

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chiefcrash

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mrcondron

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chiefcrash

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The Other Tom
I can't think of any reasons why. I can think of a lot of reasons why not. Like, some drunk fool will shoot me.

and they call us gun owners the paranoid ones...

Chiefcrash,
Don't lump us gun owners in with you "carry at all costs" guys.

only if you don't lump me in with the "carry at all costs" guys...

So are you saying that you wouldn't open carry in Yosemite?

If it was legal, yes. I don't see a reason why I shouldn't. I would very, very much rather carry it concealed, but my sheriff only issues to movie stars and campaign contributors, so I'm not left with many other options. But how does that make me a "carry at all costs" guy? And just to clarify: what do you mean by "carry at all costs" guys?

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chiefcrash

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mrcondron

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chiefcrash

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mrcondron

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chiefcrash

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The Other Tom
I can't think of any reasons why. I can think of a lot of reasons why not. Like, some drunk fool will shoot me.

and they call us gun owners the paranoid ones...

Chiefcrash,
Don't lump us gun owners in with you "carry at all costs" guys.

only if you don't lump me in with the "carry at all costs" guys...

So are you saying that you wouldn't open carry in Yosemite?

If it was legal, yes. I don't see a reason why I shouldn't. I would very, very much rather carry it concealed, but my sheriff only issues to movie stars and campaign contributors, so I'm not left with many other options. But how does that make me a "carry at all costs" guy? And just to clarify: what do you mean by "carry at all costs" guys?

This is a situation where it is important to ask "Why should I carry?", as the tranquility and comfortable enjoyment of the park by several million visitor per year is ruined with the thought of a bunch of crazed gunmen running around. You would carry regardless of that with absolutely no benefit to yourself or others by your carrying other than the fact that you are carrying because you can. Such a selfish position.

"carry at all costs" means that you don't care how your carrying affects others. "I'm going to carry because I can and I don't care how that affects anybody or anything." This is how you and several other pro carriers are coming across.

I want to compliment you on your coming to me man to man with a PM. A very upright thing to do since you could have just told me to get fucked. As far as how I suspected your age, I will spend a little time on that so my answer will be well thought out as it appears you want to hear what I have to say and my even take it to heart. I respect that.

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Old Dude



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2010 06:15PM by mrcondron.

Only reason I can think of is because some people are afraid of the unknown, and the wilderness is unknown to them.

They think they're in danger and need to protect themselves, and that a gun is a reasonable solution.

I'm carrion from now on.

I might wanna have squirrel for din din!

"It's my write and I'll cry if I want to.."

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O... also b/c derz a whole lotta loonie out der.

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Should be useful for keeping your Chick-on warm and toasty:

http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/product/mr-heater-little-buddy-propane-heater/7729

On a more serious note:

From the Random House Dictionary of the English Language (The Unabridged Edition, 1967)

paranoia
mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions and the projection of personal conflicts, which are ascribed to the supposed hostility of others

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szalkowski
On a more serious note:

From the Random House Dictionary of the English Language (The Unabridged Edition, 1967)

paranoia
mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions and the projection of personal conflicts, which are ascribed to the supposed hostility of others

A valid reason for wanting to carry heat in Yosemite, albeit not a good one.

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Old Dude

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mrcondron

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szalkowski
On a more serious note:

From the Random House Dictionary of the English Language (The Unabridged Edition, 1967)

paranoia
mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions and the projection of personal conflicts, which are ascribed to the supposed hostility of others

A valid reason for wanting to carry heat in Yosemite, albeit not a good one.

Reminds me of a scene in an episode of the sitcom “Becker:”

Inside a DMV office for the renewal of his license, the woman behind the counter comments 'You don't look your age.” Becker responds by saying the he exercises and tries to keep fit. Her reply: 'Oh, I guess that you can take that two ways.'

The answer to the question, Why Pack Heat, can be answered.
The answer will be derived from one of two basic arguments:

1. a cost benefit analysis
In this calculation, the individual would look at the chance of an event that would benefit from possession of a firearm balanced against the risk of carrying a firearm. If the risk were something like 1/100 to 1/1000 I suspect most individuals would consider carrying a weapon. Given that the risk of an encounter that would justify use of a firearm is probably less than 1/1,000,000 by those that are professionally employed in the park and involved with unlawful acts routinely (the LE rangers), it seems to me that there is no rational reason to carry a weapon. Others may have different numbers to work with or a different threshold for action..

2. a fear driven argument
In this calculus, there is no real solution-- like the fear of death from flying in an airplane by those who smoke. Those that carry weapons in public places fear an attack. The fear is related to a sense of helplessness but rationally cannot be justified. As long as the person has worked up a " fear of crime" or "fear of dominance" by a criminal, there will be no amount of reason or logic that will resolve this need. Counseling, a 12 step program, or medication may be the best option.

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

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szalkowski
On a more serious note:

From the Random House Dictionary of the English Language (The Unabridged Edition, 1967)

paranoia
mental disorder characterized by systematized delusions and the projection of personal conflicts, which are ascribed to the supposed hostility of others

I guess the reason I keep a fire extinguisher is because I'm paranoid of arsonists...

Or, maybe, it's because I like being prepared for the unpredictable, like any good boyscout...

I keep a gun for the same reason. It's not paranoia. It's just better to have something you don't need than to need something you don't have...

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chiefcrash

I guess the reason I keep a fire extinguisher is because I'm paranoid of arsonists...

Or, maybe, it's because I like being prepared for the unpredictable, like any good boyscout...

I keep a gun for the same reason. It's not paranoia. It's just better to have something you don't need than to need something you don't have...

But why carry a gun in Yosemite?


"It's just better to have something you don't need than to need something you don't have.."

By this rational you would never be able to move or go anywhere because of all the stuff you would have to carry. So why a gun in Yosemite?

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Old Dude

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mrcondron
But why carry a gun in Yosemite?

By this rational you would never be able to move or go anywhere because of all the stuff you would have to carry. So why a gun in Yosemite?

Why carry a gun in Yosemite?
In case I'm attacked by wildlife. In case I'm attacked by pot-farmers/poachers/other criminals. In case something goes horribly wrong and I'm stranded in the wilderness for a few weeks. These are the three most reasonable reasons that come to mind...

but in reality, it's for all the reasons I can't think of.

And yes, by this rational I would have to carry every conceivable piece of gear in the world. Obviously, this is not possible. So I carry the most needed/useful gear. For me, and my own personal reasons, a firearm is on that list. Just like I also carry a good knife, a flint, a flash light, and a first aid kit.

Do I think I'm going to need a gun in Yosemite? I wouldn't go there if I thought I did. Do I still want to bring one? Absolutely.

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chiefcrash

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mrcondron
But why carry a gun in Yosemite?

By this rational you would never be able to move or go anywhere because of all the stuff you would have to carry. So why a gun in Yosemite?

Why carry a gun in Yosemite?
In case I'm attacked by wildlife. In case I'm attacked by pot-farmers/poachers/other criminals. In case something goes horribly wrong and I'm stranded in the wilderness for a few weeks. These are the three most reasonable reasons that come to mind...

but in reality, it's for all the reasons I can't think of.

And yes, by this rational I would have to carry every conceivable piece of gear in the world. Obviously, this is not possible. So I carry the most needed/useful gear. For me, and my own personal reasons, a firearm is on that list. Just like I also carry a good knife, a flint, a flash light, and a first aid kit.

Do I think I'm going to need a gun in Yosemite? I wouldn't go there if I thought I did. Do I still want to bring one? Absolutely.

I am so glad you elaborated all your reasons. They are out there for all to see. You have done a fine job of presenting the "carry at all costs" group

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Old Dude

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mrcondron

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chiefcrash

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mrcondron
But why carry a gun in Yosemite?

By this rational you would never be able to move or go anywhere because of all the stuff you would have to carry. So why a gun in Yosemite?

Why carry a gun in Yosemite?
In case I'm attacked by wildlife. In case I'm attacked by pot-farmers/poachers/other criminals. In case something goes horribly wrong and I'm stranded in the wilderness for a few weeks. These are the three most reasonable reasons that come to mind...

but in reality, it's for all the reasons I can't think of.

And yes, by this rational I would have to carry every conceivable piece of gear in the world. Obviously, this is not possible. So I carry the most needed/useful gear. For me, and my own personal reasons, a firearm is on that list. Just like I also carry a good knife, a flint, a flash light, and a first aid kit.

Do I think I'm going to need a gun in Yosemite? I wouldn't go there if I thought I did. Do I still want to bring one? Absolutely.

I am so glad you elaborated all your reasons. They are out there for all to see. You have done a fine job of presenting the "carry at all costs" group

Please explain how I'm in this "carry at all costs" group? This is news to me...

I wouldn't carry if there was a cost. However, as far as I can tell, no one has offered any reason against allowing carrying guns except for "something bad might happen!" Apparently, the idea that "something bad might happen" is good enough to ban guns, but not good enough to carry one.

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chiefcrash


Why carry a gun in Yosemite?
In case something goes horribly wrong and I'm stranded in the wilderness for a few weeks. These are the three most reasonable reasons that come to mind...

.

Being the science-type nerd that I can bee, I would say that I rely heavily on statistics. Overwhelmingly, the most likely reason to carry a sidearm (that you have listed) to come true (Don't take my word for it, read Death in Yosemite) is the one above that I have chosen to quote. In that case, I would choose to carry the weight in FOOD and WATER and SIGNAL DEVICES, rather than a firearm -- you will likey increase your chances of survival much better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2010 06:33PM by Bee.

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chiefcrash
. It's just better to have something you don't need than to need something you don't have...

Incredible!
Consider the implications.
Do you then take into the park:

a dental drill with compressor
auto detail paint
a 16 foot ladder
replacement parts for a hang glider


All those, and many more, would fulfill the criteria of something you will not likely need, but which be valuable to have if you actually needed them.

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

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Frank Furter

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chiefcrash
. It's just better to have something you don't need than to need something you don't have...

Incredible!
Consider the implications.
Do you then take into the park:

a dental drill with compressor
auto detail paint
a 16 foot ladder
replacement parts for a hang glider


All those, and many more, would fulfill the criteria of something you will not likely need, but which be valuable to have if you actually needed them.

Obviously I can not bring every piece of gear in the world with me. So I choose my gear wisely.

If I need a dental drill, but don't have one, I'm probably gonna live long enough to get to a dentist.
If I need auto detail paint, but don't have any, I'm probably not going to die as a result.
If I need a 16 foot ladder, but don't have one, I can build one. And if I can't build one, I'm still not likely to die as a result (though possible)
If I need replacement parts for a hang glider WHILE FLYING, I'm screwed even if I have them. If I'm not flying, and don't have the needed parts, I am not likely to die as a result (unless I'm stupid enough to try flying it anyway)

But if I need a gun, but don't have one, then there is a very high likely hood of death or grave personal injury. Also, a gun is small and easy enough to carry, no real effort is involved besides strapping it on in the morning.

I also carry a good knife, a fling, a flashlight, and a first aid kit with me. Just because it's better to have those things and not need them than to need them and not have them. However, I doubt you find much of a problem with that. Strangely, you only seem to have a problem with 1 particular inanimate object...

a couple of years ago (by myself) , i took a dirt road about 2 miles to check out a camping site i had never seen before. i thought it might be cool to go somewhere new.. once i got there, i noticed a number of unsavory people there.. you know, you just get this bad, creepy feeling something isn't right at all... as i was in my car, one guy walked up to me to ask me a question, i was VERY nervous with him and kept my window half way up so he couldn't grab me etc... he asked me "do i have change? and am i spending the night?", i could tell it was to only check me out... i had my hand on my stun gun the whole time he was at my window... now keep in mind, i can physically handle myself in most situations, but this guy gave me the creeps so much, that i decided it was NOT a good idea to stick around, so i quickly left (i could smell weed on him).

he creeped me out so much, that i remember wishing i had a handgun for my safety.. i would not have pulled it on the guy, but would have felt much much safer had i had one at the time... i later thought, "what if this guy pulled out a gun or a knife ??"... that is the only time i wished i had a gun while camping... so for me, it isn't about being afraid of a bear etc, but the number of weirdos out there.

Probably a designated NRA campground.

Take your choice:
http://www.acronymfinder.com/NRA.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2010 11:21AM by szalkowski.

You weren't in Yosemite then. I'd feel the same way but the best thing to do is to just drive off otherwise it could be just like in the movies. You'd pull a gun, blast the first guy, your car would stall, it wouldn't start, and the rest of the bad guys are closing in on you with Uzis while you frantically crank your car over to no avail. Fade to black.

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Old Dude

lololol good one Mike...


actually it was in Yosemite... a few miles from the Chevron station (Crane Flat) going towards TMeadows.

It seems that by all the activity on the boards the consciousness level of the firearm thing is rising. All three boards I post on are having a lot of posts and views. I suspect our leaders in Sacramento will be keeping up with this stuff and will enact something soon. It won't cost anything, won't raise taxes, will probably be popular with the majority of the state's citizens, and will put the open carry in the parks thing to bed. One can hope.

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Old Dude

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mrcondron
It seems that by all the activity on the boards the consciousness level of the firearm thing is rising. All three boards I post on are having a lot of posts and views. I suspect our leaders in Sacramento will be keeping up with this stuff and will enact something soon. It won't cost anything, won't raise taxes, will probably be popular with the majority of the state's citizens, and will put the open carry in the parks thing to bed. One can hope.

I wouldn't count on it.

In a month or two, the 2nd Amendment is likely to be incorporated against the states. Which means the states will be very restricted with what they can and can not do in regards to gun laws. Plus legislators are starting to learn that guns are a very dangerous topic for their re-elections...

Chiefcrash,
Just curious, how old are you?

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Old Dude

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mrcondron
Chiefcrash,
Just curious, how old are you?

24. How old are you? And how is it relevant?

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chiefcrash

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mrcondron
Chiefcrash,
Just curious, how old are you?

24. How old are you? And how is it relevant?

I'm 67.
I figured you were about 25. Your argument style screams 25.

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Old Dude

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mrcondron

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chiefcrash

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mrcondron
Chiefcrash,
Just curious, how old are you?

24. How old are you? And how is it relevant?

I'm 67.
I figured you were about 25. Your argument style screams 25.

Is there something wrong with my style, or is that just an ad hominem?

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chiefcrash

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mrcondron

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chiefcrash

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mrcondron
Chiefcrash,
Just curious, how old are you?

24. How old are you? And how is it relevant?

I'm 67.
I figured you were about 25. Your argument style screams 25.

Is there something wrong with my style, or is that just an ad hominem?

Your arguments stand or fall on their own merit. Your style speaks to your age. Style goes to form not substance.

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Old Dude

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mrcondron
It seems that by all the activity on the boards the consciousness level of the firearm thing is rising. All three boards I post on are having a lot of posts and views. I suspect our leaders in Sacramento will be keeping up with this stuff and will enact something soon. It won't cost anything, won't raise taxes, will probably be popular with the majority of the state's citizens, and will put the open carry in the parks thing to bed. One can hope.

I am not up to speed on exactly what the court decision was. If the court decided that guns can be carried, how would the state be able to change that?

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traildad

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mrcondron
It seems that by all the activity on the boards the consciousness level of the firearm thing is rising. All three boards I post on are having a lot of posts and views. I suspect our leaders in Sacramento will be keeping up with this stuff and will enact something soon. It won't cost anything, won't raise taxes, will probably be popular with the majority of the state's citizens, and will put the open carry in the parks thing to bed. One can hope.

I am not up to speed on exactly what the court decision was. If the court decided that guns can be carried, how would the state be able to change that?

The amendment attached to the credit card bill thingy allows the individual states gun laws to apply to national parks within that state. As the state law goes or changes so go the rules in the national parks. So if the California legislature says no guns in national parks then no guns in the national parks in California.

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Old Dude



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2010 07:13PM by mrcondron.

Benefit:
Protection against any Pacific Northwest Sasquatch family that may be vacationing in the park.

personally, i'm tired of government restrictions with many of the gun laws (especially here in California).. we have a right to bear arms in this country .. i'm 53 years old, so i don't think it's an age issue.

Forrest,
Why have you changed your avatar?

This is a serious thread and the previous one, let's say, didn't help.

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Old Dude

It seems that most people on the anti-gun carry side of this debate would define anyone that wanted to carry a gun as unreasonable. I suppose some people are less at ease in those surroundings. There are people that have been the victims of violence and never feel safe anywhere. I have done a lot of camping in National Forests and always carry a gun. You can't exactly wave down the cop on the corner when you are out in the forest. Things are different in Yosemite. You are not likely to accidentally stumble onto a pot farm. There is a much more visible law enforcement presence. The possibility of fringe types living near the hiking trails is none or next to none. I don't think the odds of a problem justify the extra weight of carrying a gun while backpacking. As far as the developed campgrounds go, that would probably be similar to bringing a gun to church in case an anti-abortion nut job comes around looking for a doctor to shoot. It does happen, but statistically I couldn't justify it.

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traildad
It seems that most people on the anti-gun carry side of this debate would define anyone that wanted to carry a gun as unreasonable. I suppose some people are less at ease in those surroundings. There are people that have been the victims of violence and never feel safe anywhere. I have done a lot of camping in National Forests and always carry a gun. You can't exactly wave down the cop on the corner when you are out in the forest. Things are different in Yosemite. You are not likely to accidentally stumble onto a pot farm. There is a much more visible law enforcement presence. The possibility of fringe types living near the hiking trails is none or next to none. I don't think the odds of a problem justify the extra weight of carrying a gun while backpacking. As far as the developed campgrounds go, that would probably be similar to bringing a gun to church in case an anti-abortion nut job comes around looking for a doctor to shoot. It does happen, but statistically I couldn't justify it.

Nicely put. Why muck up the park with a bunch of guns when there is absolutely nothing to gain and the peace and tranquility are to be lost?

Carry open somewhere else.

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Old Dude



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2010 07:17PM by mrcondron.

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traildad
It seems that most people on the anti-gun carry side of this debate would define anyone that wanted to carry a gun as unreasonable.

They have reasons. The issue is not lack of reasons but quality.

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/national_park_gun_law_still_a_yawner/C41/L41/

National Park Gun Law Still a Yawner
Now that the national park gun law is in effect, I predict, once more, that park visitors won't really notice the difference, but the onus is now on gun owners to make sure I'm correct.

As widely reported, an epic political victory for the gun lobby hit the ground on Monday, February 22. The National Park Service (NPS) and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) must now, in accordance with applicable state laws, allow visitors to carry guns into most national parks and wildlife refuges, including loaded firearms and concealed weapons with a proper permit...

Even though black bears pose as much--if not more--of a threat, grizzlies grab the most attention. Montana’s Glacier National Park, for example, has one of the highest densities of grizzly bears ever recorded. Over the past five years (2005-2009), almost ten million people visited Glacier, but only three were injured by grizzly bears, perhaps because none of the three used bear spray.

FWS statistics tell the same story. Since 1992, 50 percent of people involved in grizzly encounters and defending themselves with firearms suffered injury. Those defending themselves with bear pepper spray escaped injury most of the time and those who were injured experienced shorter attacks and less severe injuries. Pepper spray is a lot easier on the bear, too. ......

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

eye swears dat deer was attacking me ossicifer.

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Benefit:
Protection against the dreaded Alpine Crocodile.

szalkowski;

you really like the other avatar??? lol i figure no one would take me nearly as serious with that one. lol

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forrestranger
szalkowski;

you really like the other avatar??? lol i figure no one would take me nearly as serious with that one. lol

me likey da glasses

(just wondering if ur pants on da ground too)



"pants on the ground... pants on the ground... hat turned sideways..."

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Disclaimer: some of these defense technques may only be appropriate for campground use.

Looks like its time to close this thread, too.

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Bee
Looks like its time to close this thread, too.

Freshy fruit not good nuff for you, eh!?!?

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One aspect of carrying a gun, concealed or not, is the disposition of the gun owner. I think most people might be less than forthcoming regarding the quality of their decision making when a weapon of this sort is available to them. There have been times that even I could see the possible appeal of carrying a gun for any number of possible scenarios, however unlikely. Unfortunately, I know myself too well. I am the type of person who abhors violence and will generally do everything I can to avoid it. However, if I am pushed sufficiently, that preferance can quickly give way to a temper that explodes in my antagonist's face without warning. It is in this mode that I can be truly dangerous to all around me as well as myself. There is no telling what I may do. Fortunately, I am well aware that this makes me a very poor candidate for carrying a gun.

The world is full of people like me, calm and gregarious on the outside but with a smoldering hidden quick temper in the face of perceived threat.

This is what scares so many of us who are anti-gun carrying advocates. We don't know who has a gun or how they will really react in the face of perceived threats. Will they make the right decisions or will they be too likely to rely on response with deadly force? This is a very valid concern. If I don't trust myself with a hand gun how am I ever going to feel safe around somebody else in the crowd I don't even know? If you are carrying a gun and are not a law enforcement officer you scare the crap out me. I don't trust you. I don't want you in the same square mile I occupy. I don't know anything about you or your abilty to make stable choices in touchy situations.

Leave your damned gun at home. It does not belong in my national park. It violates my right to quiet enjoyment.