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Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit

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Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 11:54AM
I will be in Yosemite soon, but I am not familiar with the trailhead rules for specific wilderness permits, and so am looking for some advice and clarification. I have a permit for the Glacier point to Illilouette entry trailhead. My understanding is that this means, practically, that I must spend the first night in the Illilouette drainage. My question is: Does it matter how I get there? Must I enter from the trailhead at Glacier Point, or could I come up other ways from the Valley? Since I will be car-less, my options seem to be 1: get a one way ticket on the tour tram to Glacier point (which arrives at around 11 am or so I've been told), 2: Hike up JMT and Panorama to get to Buena Vista or other trails that head south along the Illilouette or 3) Hike up the Four Mile Trail. My thought, is that it probably doesn' matter how I get there, as long as I'm in the drainage for the first night. Is this correct? Also, I understand that the Four Mile Trail is steep. Is it extremely ambitious to aim to hike UP the four mile trail with full packs (me, and a 16 and 17 yr old will be out for several days)?

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

Frank
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 12:25PM
Quote
Frank
I will be in Yosemite soon, but I am not familiar with the trailhead rules for specific wilderness permits, and so am looking for some advice and clarification. I have a permit for the Glacier point to Illilouette entry trailhead. My understanding is that this means, practically, that I must spend the first night in the Illilouette drainage. My question is: Does it matter how I get there? Must I enter from the trailhead at Glacier Point, or could I come up other ways from the Valley? Since I will be car-less, my options seem to be 1: get a one way ticket on the tour tram to Glacier point (which arrives at around 11 am or so I've been told), 2: Hike up JMT and Panorama to get to Buena Vista or other trails that head south along the Illilouette or 3) Hike up the Four Mile Trail. My thought, is that it probably doesn' matter how I get there, as long as I'm in the drainage for the first night. Is this correct? Also, I understand that the Four Mile Trail is steep. Is it extremely ambitious to aim to hike UP the four mile trail with full packs (me, and a 16 and 17 yr old will be out for several days)?

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

Frank



You must enter at the specified trailhead.

I doubt that you want to hike up the Four Mile Trail with full packs because you still will have to hike 2.5+ miles from the trailhead in order to exit the excluded camping zone that exists around Glacier Point. This exclusion zone is shown in the National Geographic Trails Illustrated Map titled Yosemite SW (map # 306).
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 12:45PM
Quote
szalkowski
I doubt that you want to hike up the Four Mile Trail with full packs because you still will have to hike 2.5+ miles from the trailhead in order to exit the excluded camping zone that exists around Glacier Point.

When I went down the Four Mile Trail last month I talked to a couple of guys doing exactly that. Considering how late it was in the afternoon I suspect they did some of their hike after dark.
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 12:36PM
Quote
Frank
I will be in Yosemite soon, but I am not familiar with the trailhead rules for specific wilderness permits, and so am looking for some advice and clarification. I have a permit for the Glacier point to Illilouette entry trailhead. My understanding is that this means, practically, that I must spend the first night in the Illilouette drainage. My question is: Does it matter how I get there? Must I enter from the trailhead at Glacier Point, or could I come up other ways from the Valley? Since I will be car-less, my options seem to be 1: get a one way ticket on the tour tram to Glacier point (which arrives at around 11 am or so I've been told), 2: Hike up JMT and Panorama to get to Buena Vista or other trails that head south along the Illilouette or 3) Hike up the Four Mile Trail. My thought, is that it probably doesn' matter how I get there, as long as I'm in the drainage for the first night. Is this correct? Also, I understand that the Four Mile Trail is steep. Is it extremely ambitious to aim to hike UP the four mile trail with full packs (me, and a 16 and 17 yr old will be out for several days)?

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!

Frank

Some of the objectives of the permit process are to limit wear and tear on the trail, limit wear and tear on the camping spots, as well as to limit the # of people/congestion on the trails. I think that if a ranger were to ask you on trail for your permit, and you were on the wrong trail, that at the very least you'd get a lecture, at the worst you'd get a ticket. I don't think this is likely to happen ( ranger asking on trail for permit ) but . . . I would suggest you call the permit office verify where your permit allows you to hike during the day, and camp a night.

Yosemite Wilderness Permits
Yosemite Traihead Information
Yosemite Associations Wilderness Permit Page

Yosemite Associations handles the permits. Their phone # is (209) 372-0740.

I would suggest you take the bus up to Glacier Point. During the trip cross Panorama Trail to JMT, come down JMT back to the valley. Remember to look behind you at Nevada Fall as you're going down JMT! smiling smiley

All of the trails out of the valley go up. Does a 3200 foot gain in 4.6 miles sound ambitious? Depends on the fitness of the person and the weight of their pack. Consider also the altitude. You start out at 4000 and end up at 7200. For people who have never experienced the altitude it can be a taxing experience.


Have a fun and safe trip!
Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 01:54PM
Thanks for the replies. I did call the Yosemite Association and inquire as suggested by qumqats. The response was unambiguous. The two critical elements of the permit are the trailhead entry location, and first night camping location. I MUST enter at Glacier Point. As was apparent from my original post, that this would be the case was not obvious to me, since the alternative would be simply hiking on trails that are within a day-hike of trailheads and consequently for which the traffic is unregulated, to get to the desired turnoff into the illilouette area. Nonetheless, my thinking was wrong. I will be taking the tour bus to Glacier point and entering there.

Thanks again!
Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 01:09PM
My son and I are headed up Thursday morning, DEETed and netted, we don't have a permit reserved, but as in the past, we get there early, you can get a trailhead permit and your bear can. HAVE FUN!!
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 03:27PM
Frank,
You can indeed hike up the Four Mile Trail to the trailhead you are permitted for just as you can hike the road from the valley floor to it. If you do use the Four Mile Trail to get to your permitted Glacier Point trailhead then you must hike on to your campable area. Going up the Four Mike Trail to get to your permitted trailhead is no different than hiking from the backpackers parking lot on a trail to the Happy Isle trailhead, just a lot longer and somewhat harder. Ha ha ha.

The link below will get you to an NPS page that shows all the "overnight permit required" trailheads and how far you have to hike before camping.
Click on "map showing each trailhead" for a download of the pdf file. It's hires allowing you to do good zooming in on it.

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/trailheads.htm

By the way, you cannot start your hike on any numbered wilderness trailhead other than the one you are permitted for. No going up the JMT or something like that.



Old Dude



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2010 07:05PM by mrcondron.
Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 06:50PM
Thanks mrcondron. Basically you are saying that the path one takes to get to the trailhead specified in the wilderness permit can be whatever you wish so long as it is not along another trailhead used in the wilderness permit granting process, and so long as you can make it to the appropriate camping zone that day. So, as you say, one could get to the Glacier point trailhead by four mile trail since that is not a trailhead used by the permit process, but one could not proceed there along JMT, because it is part of the Happy Isles Trailhead used in the permit process.

I want to hike up the four mile trail, but I'm starting to think it might not be the wisest way to begin a multiday trip with full packs. The glacier point bus might be the best bet.

Thanks for your input.

frank
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 07:23PM
But once you get to Glacier Point it's all downhill to where you can camp!!



Old Dude
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 07:43PM
Frank,
Your understanding of the situation is correct.

Added note: if you would hike up the Four Mile Trail to the Glacier Point trailhead, you can be reasonably sure that the 2.5+ miles that you would need to hike in order to exit the GP "no camping zone" would seem more like 10+ miles even though it is downhill.

I've climbed out of Kings Canyon along the Copper Creek Trail a few times. That trail starts out at 5.0k and goes over a 10.4k pass after about 6.5 trail miles. The only really good camping spot along that route (i.e. flat area with water) is at Lower Tent Meadow around the 3.0 mile mark and 2.6k elevation gain. Even though I've been backpacking for 40 years with relatively heavy packs, I go as light as possible up that route and have never tried to make the pass in one day (since I usually drive up from Orange County starting in the early morning hours and generally don't get on the trail until 10-11 AM), nor do I think that I would want to unless my life depended on it. I'm quite content to kick back at Lower Tent, enjoy the rest of the day there, and rest up for the second half of the climb up into Granite Basin the next day. (A ranger that I talked with in Dusy Basin last year told me that they refer to that trail as "The Bitch"; it also has the nice, added feature of being on a S-facing slope so you get to have the sun beating down on you for a good portion of the climb.) You don't mention anything about the hiking experience of the people in your group, so the point of this story is that you don't want to turn them off to backpacking by taking them on a "Bataan Death March" until they have some experience under their belts and realize what they are getting into. Let them have a few easy trips first.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2010 07:55PM by szalkowski.
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 07:53PM
smiling smiley

Chick-on and I did "the bitch" 2009 Memorial Day.

It was yummy. In one day... out the next.

Past Grouse is actually the start of Roper's "Sierra High Route".

If anyone is interested here's some photos:
http://picasaweb.google.com/dale.dekeyser/Cop
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 08:01PM
Quote
bill-e-g
smiling smiley

Chick-on and I did "the bitch" 2009 Memorial Day.

It was yummy. In one day... out the next.

Past Grouse is actually the start of Roper's "Sierra High Route".

If anyone is interested here's some photos:
http://picasaweb.google.com/dale.dekeyser/Cop


Yes, basically an extended dayhike with your full pack consisting mostly of CC, a couple Twinkies, and your sleeping bag.
(Crazy Chick-on)
I've encountered a few people on that trail that were doing the climb up to Granite Basin as a dayhike.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2010 08:05PM by szalkowski.
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 08:07PM
Quote
szalkowski
I've encountered a few people on that trail that were doing the climb up to Granite Basin as a dayhike.

See... I'm not the only nutjob out there!
(still need to get to LOTFM btw)
(the sun cups were pissing me off so I turned around at Granite Pass and was gonna go up
Goat Mtn. when I pulled a stupid maneuver heading that way and ripped my hand open)
(end of trip... ) (had 3 days planned)

O well... maybe later this year... or next... or next... or...
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 08:22PM
Quote
bill-e-g
Quote
szalkowski
I've encountered a few people on that trail that were doing the climb up to Granite Basin as a dayhike.

See... I'm not the only nutjob out there!
(still need to get to LOTFM btw)
(the sun cups were pissing me off so I turned around at Granite Pass and was gonna go up
Goat Mtn. when I pulled a stupid maneuver heading that way and ripped my hand open)
(end of trip... ) (had 3 days planned)

O well... maybe later this year... or next... or next... or...



For those that don't know, LOTFM = Lake of the Fallen Moon.

Anticipation of doing this hike again, prompted me to buy a MSR Hubba HP tent (single person, approx. 2 lbs.) and a Marmot Helium sleeping bag to cut several lbs. off the weight that I've dragged up there.
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 08:23PM
Quote
bill-e-g
See... I'm not the only nutjob out there!

No even close. There are people that do rim-to-rim-to-rim-to-rim in the Grand Canyon. And there are the Palm Springs nuts as well: http://www.hiking4health.com/adventures2.htm
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 08:28PM
Quote
eeek
Quote
bill-e-g
See... I'm not the only nutjob out there!

No even close. There are people that do rim-to-rim-to-rim-to-rim in the Grand Canyon. And there are the Palm Springs nuts as well: http://www.hiking4health.com/adventures2.htm

Isn't that one too many "to rim"?
I know that people do rim-to-rim-to-rim dayhikes in the GC.
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 08:58PM
Quote
szalkowski
Quote
eeek
Quote
bill-e-g
See... I'm not the only nutjob out there!

No even close. There are people that do rim-to-rim-to-rim-to-rim in the Grand Canyon. And there are the Palm Springs nuts as well: http://www.hiking4health.com/adventures2.htm

Isn't that one too many "to rim"?
I know that people do rim-to-rim-to-rim dayhikes in the GC.

No, that's exactly the right number of rims.
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 09:25PM
Quote
eeek
Quote
szalkowski
Quote
eeek
Quote
bill-e-g
See... I'm not the only nutjob out there!

No even close. There are people that do rim-to-rim-to-rim-to-rim in the Grand Canyon. And there are the Palm Springs nuts as well: http://www.hiking4health.com/adventures2.htm

Isn't that one too many "to rim"?
I know that people do rim-to-rim-to-rim dayhikes in the GC.

No, that's exactly the right number of rims.


That's three traverses, it puts them at the opposite side of the canyon from which they started.
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 09:45PM
Quote
szalkowski
Quote
eeek
Quote
szalkowski
Quote
eeek
Quote
bill-e-g
See... I'm not the only nutjob out there!

No even close. There are people that do rim-to-rim-to-rim-to-rim in the Grand Canyon. And there are the Palm Springs nuts as well: http://www.hiking4health.com/adventures2.htm

Isn't that one too many "to rim"?
I know that people do rim-to-rim-to-rim dayhikes in the GC.

No, that's exactly the right number of rims.


That's three traverses, it puts them at the opposite side of the canyon from which they started.

Ok, add a rim.
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 10, 2010 10:30AM
Quote
eeek
Quote
szalkowski
That's three traverses, it puts them at the opposite side of the canyon from which they started.
Ok, add a rim.


That is insane.

In what time period was it done? I've seen reports of rim-to-rim-to-rim hikes done inside of a day.

A single across-and-back could be considered a challenge for a hiker. A double across-and-back is just a publicity stunt.
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 13, 2010 04:55PM
!! That would be over 80 miles !!
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 13, 2010 06:04PM
Quote
sierranomad
!! That would be over 80 miles !!

Yep.
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 08:16PM
Quote
bill-e-g
smiling smiley

Chick-on and I did "the bitch" 2009 Memorial Day.
It was yummy. In one day... out the next.

Mere humans might not find it so tasty.
avatar Re: Trailhead entry for specific permit
July 09, 2010 08:18PM
Since I went off topic I'll just say this... the map OD Mike linked too is
really good. It's pretty obvious where you are suppose to start your hike
and where you can camp.

That being said there is definitely lee-way in where you are allowed to start.
(what I mean is you can start hiking pretty much anywhere you want...
you just need a permit for the TH that is closest to your entry point)

For example I would expect that a White Wolf permit would suffice for this
trip if overnighting:
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,26797,26797#msg-26797
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