Re: Wilderness permit lyell fork - no reservations

Ok so I procrastinated and didn't get a reservation for one of the most popular trailheads in the park even though I planned this trip a year ago. My daughter and I are hiking from Tuolumne Meadows to Devils Postpile and I'm wondering how early I need to line up to get one of the 16 first come first served permits. We are leaving on Monday July 26 so I plan on being in line at 4am Sunday morning in hopes of snagging 3 permits. Is this early enough? I also will see if there are no shows at 10am Sunday and maybe leave Sunday if those became available.

Any advice appreciated

That early should put you first in line period. Since you are there the day before you should be sure of getting three.

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Old Dude

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apeman45
We are leaving on Monday July 26 so I plan on being in line at 4am Sunday morning in hopes of snagging 3 permits. Is this early enough? I also will see if there are no shows at 10am Sunday and maybe leave Sunday if those became available.

Any advice appreciated

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mrcondron
That early should put you first in line period. Since you are there the day before you should be sure of getting three.

Just show up when they open at 7:30 AM and you'll be fine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2010 07:21PM by szalkowski.

Eye see old people... (crying der eyes out... no permit avail)

Seriously... I've been hearing people sleeping in line.
From what I've heard 3am is also not unheard of.

This is in the valley.

Last Sat. ALL permits out of TM were taken.
Took us easily nearly 1 hour to get a permit (3 people were ahead of us).

Argh!!!!!

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here are other options- I have used them all.

you can ask for either JMT southbound, or Lyell Canyon. Different quotas despite same start point. That frees up more spots.

also, you could ask for a start the day before at, say, Murphy Creek/Tenaya and camp at Tuolumne ,then head south from there the day you want.

or, if well acclimatized, you could go ultra light and do the whole 30 miles as a dayhike.

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h_lankford
here are other options- I have used them all.

you can ask for either JMT southbound, or Lyell Canyon. Different quotas despite same start point. That frees up more spots.

This statement is wrong.
There is not JMT southbound. It's Lyell Canyon.

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h_lankford
also, you could ask for a start the day before at, say, Murphy Creek/Tenaya and camp at Tuolumne ,then head south from there the day you want.

wtf! cmon
This is skirting the system. If by Tuolumne you mean the backpackers campground... good luck...
I know they have been checking wilderness permits.

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If you did not start at the trailhead on your permit you did it wrong.

There is one quota for the JMT from Lyell - just one. You can get a walk in permit for the next day, or wait til 10 am and see if there are unclaimed reserved permits to pick up on the day of your hike. That's all. No reserved permit, no walk in permit, no last chance permit - try again tomorrow. You start ON THE DAY ON YOUR PERMIT. No "day you want," or "whatever trail you want."

You were very lucky one of the many backcountry rangers did not throw you out of the park, as someone I know has been... no permit or the WRONG permit, and you will find yourself escorted right back to your car, and asked to LEAVE. Cheat at your own risk but don't suggest it to people.

Thanks for all the advice. I'm pretty much a rule follower and as an old guy I've seen a big improvement in backcountry conditions because of quotas and no trace camping. I appreciate the advice anyway.

I think I'll go with the 4 am line idea at the Tuolumne Meadows permit station. What's scary is you can be 3rd in line and not get a permit because the 1st 2 guys could take all the permits if they are in large groups or boyscouts or something. I was hoping someone might know how the line would be there since I have also heard of people sleeping in line. I really don't see how it takes people so long to get permits. I always have my itinerary ready and it never takes more than 5 minutes. It never fails that the guy in front of you has never backpacked before and has a million retarded questions and has never heard of a bear cannister or fire regulations. What we do for a wilderness experience.

Expand your horizons and be open to doing other routes. It will reduce the level of stress. One year we showed up at 4:30 am. We were not the first in line so we had to pick what was left over which was Sunrise Lakes. The first couple miles gave our legs and lungs a decent workout but the view to Half Dome before the first lake was worth it. We then went to Merced Lake and Vogelsang and TM. There's a shuttle between TM and Sunrise Lakes trailhead if you go that route.

I usually avoid crowded trails so this isn't usually an issue. I need this trailhead because my daughter wants to do the whole JMT in chunks and this is her second to last segment and I only get her one more summer before she goes off to college. I love the JMT but it's a little crowded for my tastes. This lining up thing seems crazy but I really enjoy hiking with my kid so through the hoops I go.

I am thinking of picking up a permit from Sierra NF - Edison or Florence, or any of the ZILLION options - and heading north into that section of the JMT. Permits at SNF are a snap. The only reason more people don't do this is likely due to the car shuttle issues in leaving one at the end of your route and needing to be dropped off six hours driving from there to start it.

I am doing the section of JMT between Kearsarge pass and Whitney by having a permit from Inyo from Onion Valley to Horseshoe Meadows, and doing Whitney as a side trip - NO WHITNEY PERMIT NEEDED that way. Whitney is such a cluster you need a permit to exit OR to enter from the Portal, and there are none left. I don't even want to be on the "cattle trail" from Portal at all... The trail quota from Onion is 60 reservable. No idea how many walk ins you can get.

Uh... you said it much nicer dan da cranky bird.

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sorry, my English was confusing.

I did mean starting the day before, backpacking from Murphy to Tuolumne for the night. It was an idea suggested to me by the ranger. Also, I should have checked the current trailhead quota list. I was repeating what the ranger told me in 2006. He really did make a distinction between the two destinations, Lyell versus JMT South. It must have been related to the exit permit at the other end, Whitney. I apologize for the wrong info.

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h_lankford
sorry, my English was confusing.

I did mean starting the day before, backpacking from Murphy to Tuolumne for the night. It was an idea suggested to me by the ranger. Also, I should have checked the current trailhead quota list. I was repeating what the ranger told me in 2006. He really did make a distinction between the two destinations, Lyell versus JMT South. It must have been related to the exit permit at the other end, Whitney. I apologize for the wrong info.

Actually, entering at Murphy shouldn't work anyway according to the trailhead system since you would be exiting wilderness at a Tuolumne trailhead and crossing the Tioga Road corridor (the Murphy trailhead being for points N of Tioga).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2010 06:05AM by szalkowski.

I think if you got a Murphy Creek permit you could hike to GA over to TM and then south in Lyle even without stopping for a night. Showing up at the TM trailhead while the ink was still wet on the permit would cause some suspicion though. More than I would want to do in a day. I also think that it is possible to do a loop on a single permit that will allow you to cross 120 without a second permit.

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Old Dude

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h_lankford
I did mean starting the day before, backpacking from Murphy to Tuolumne for the night. It was an idea suggested to me by the ranger.

Sorry if I repeat myself or whatnot. Sometimes the rangers just don't get it right either.
(example - ranger said "there's no quota for xcountry" -- well... that's just not right as
I mentioned this in a different thread... if you don't start at ANY TH you still need a permit
for a close TH and it counts for that quota) (the guy was starting at Olmsted Pt.
and the ranger was confused on what to give the person)

Anyway, you need to be 4 miles from TM to camp.
So if you get Murphy and hike to TM and camp... that won't cut it.

apeman: I agree with you big time about getting permits. Drives me batty!
Even been second in line and it's taken 1/2 hour. Hello! You got a permit
for TOMORROW... maybe you can come back and ask 20 questions about
exactly how much water and mud and how many sticks you will have to step over.
Sigh. Also agree about the JMT. Great trail. Waaaaaaaaay too many peeps.

One more thing while I'm on a roll... if you are overweight guy and carrying a
backpack... can you please just put a shirt on. I may have just eaten and
would like to keep much lunch down. (it'll make me wonder if you were in on
that double rainbow video)

Signed,
Cranky

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That was not the right advice for a ranger to give - since I have had bad advice as well from some of them, I'm not surprised. The rangers in offices are not the law enforcement model, they are civilians, with varying levels of experience and training. They do their best but everyone's a noob at least once.

The ones you will meet on the trail will be law enforcement, with gun, taser, pepper spray and bullet proof vest. They know the rules real well. Talked to one for a while (checked permit, fishing license, and number of fish we were packing in snow in the bear can). He said yes, we use these on people... but only if we need to. (Pot growers, prolly.)

The real alternate trailhead would have been Sunrise or Cathedral - there is a TRAIL that connects you with the one you actually want to be on. Crossing roads, or hiking ON the road, are not going to work. Of course, both Sunrise and Cathedral THs are as booked solid as the ones at TM.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2010 08:00AM by AlmostThere.

Follow this link to the NPS page and download the "a map showing each trailhead". It makes things pretty clear.

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/trailheads.htm

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Old Dude



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2010 08:25AM by mrcondron.

I'm going to chime in here ever so slightly off topic. I have a Cathedral TH advanced reservation for 8/18, a Wednesday. Normally I would schedule a day hike first so I can pick up my overnight trip permit at my liesure but screwed up this year. Anyway, is it really going to do any good to show up way before 7:30 AM to pick up the permit that's waiting for me? I wish they had a separate line for those w/ advanced reservations and no dumb questions.

Tom,
If you come in the park from the west like on 120 you can pick up your permit at the Big Oak Flat entrance with a lot smaller crowd.

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Old Dude

Be careful - just make sure you are at the *front of the line* by 10 am on the day you have your permit (the time they are considered abandoned and the spots are opened up for other people). We had a really bad experience a few years ago with the whole 'use it or lose it by 10 am' rule on reserved permits.

There were 7 (?) of us planning on GC of the Tuolumne on 4th of July weekend (low snow year - it was all clear). The trip leader had successfully reserved the permit months in advance. She had her confirmation. When coming through the Big Oak Flat entrance loooong before 10 am on the Friday of the holiday weekend, she went straight to the Big Oak permit office. Line out the door, natch. She waited for an hour and the line barely moved. The ranger, around 9:45, finally told everyone in line who either had a reservation or wanted a permit for the Tuolumne area to head up to the Tuolumne permit station. Our trip leader was assured that her permit would be held past the 10 am cutoff window since clearly we would not make it to Tuolumne by then.

Well, you know where this is going. By the time we got to the front of the line in tuolumne (probably 11 am-ish) our permit spots were long gone. And we weren't the only people in that situation. A lot of angry people, to be sure. And trying to find a trailhead with availability for 7 people at 11 am on a holiday weekend? Impossible. We became those jerks holding up the line. We were not happy about this.

Fortunately we had an awesome ranger. As we poured over the maps with him, discussing trips we had done in the past, I think he realized we were a pretty harmless and experienced group, so he wink wink nudge nudged us to the picnic table outside and gave us our original spot.

Now, I make sure to call and have my reservation held even if I expect to be in and out long before the 10 am deadline. Who knows when a flat tire or RV moving at 15 mph is going to hold you up. Also, we bought that ranger a case of beer upon our return from a wonderful weekend.

I agree. July 4th on a weekend is a nightmare and requires great care. Wednesday in mid August is probably very safe.

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Old Dude

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mrcondron
Tom,
If you come in the park from the west like on 120 you can pick up your permit at the Big Oak Flat entrance with a lot smaller crowd.

Mike, it's Jim actually. Anyway, I'll be coming in from Lee Vining so Big Oak Flat is not an option. I was hoping the waiting line would not be too long on a weekday because I've got a long way to go the first day on the trail. Also, there goes any chance for a decent breakfast before hitting the trail for 5 days. Looks like I've got to get there early and sit on my butt.

Jim Actually,
I'm sure Lee Vining has a good breakfast place or two that open pretty early. Upon getting to the TM Wilderness office it there was a large crowd I would get to the counter and announce that I had a reservation and just wanted to be sure I would get service before the 10AM cutoff. Actually I think that there should be an express line for reservations and for people that don't have to be hand-held.

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Old Dude

Mike,

Nicely's in Lee Vining opens at 6AM which means the earliest I could get there is 7:30. Don't know about that express line for advanced reservations. Kind of doubt that very much but will try to reach them by phone to find out.

Jim

There is no such thing as the express line but I would surely let them know upon my arrival that I had a reservation and that I wanted to be served before the 10AM deadline if it looked as if there was a long wait.

A few airports had an expert line through security for a while. You know, people that knew to take off their shoes, belt, laptop out, video camera out, all metal in little bowls. Very complex stuff. I'm thinking Reno and maybe Hobby in Houston but I haven't seen that line for a while.

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Old Dude

Mike,

I called the Wilderness Permits info line and eventually spoke with somebody named Nathan (probably in the valley). Nathan said it was his understanding there "should" be a separate line or some mechanism present to give priority to those with advanced reservations. If there are lots of people waiting I'm going to speak up and ask which line is for advanced reservations.

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mrcondron
I'm sure Lee Vining has a good breakfast place or two that open pretty early.

Nicely's for breakfast





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2010 06:42PM by The Other Tom.

If you are comfortable with cross-country travel, another alternative would be to start on the Elizabeth/Nelson Lake, camping the first night at Nelson Lake, Reymann Lake, Boothe Lake, or even Vogelsang. There is an obvious use trail from Elizabeth to Nelson Lake, and it's fairly straightforward off-trail travel from Nelson to the Rafferty Creek trail via the pass to the east of Reymann Lake. Next day, head down Rafferty and pick up the JMT, just a few miles from Tuolumne. (Or, rejoin the JMT further up canyon via the Ireland Lake trail, which may be nicer if things are still muddy in Lyell Canyon...) Nelson Lake's quota rarely fills--in fact, you should be able to pick up a walk-up permit the same day or even reserve your permit in advance.

Great suggestion basilbop. I am going to hike to Nelson and Reymann the next time I'm in the area. Now I have a question. If you hike in that way and stay in Vogelsang the first night isn't that against the rules? I thought you could only stay in Vogelsang the first night if you got a Rafferty Creek permit. It would seem only logical if you got the Nelson Lake permit that's where you'd have to stay the first night or at least nearby at Reymann. Otherwise everyone would be going for the Nelson permit and then beelining over to Evelyn or Ireland for the night.

rightstar76,
Look at this map and you will see that you can only get a permit for the numbered trailheads. Once you are on your way you can cross country to anywhere you want but you will have to state your basic route and exit date when you get the permit.
The Elizabeth Lake trail is not a wilderness trailhead.

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/trailheads.htm

This link is also at the bottom of the page under "maps" "Trailhead Information".

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Old Dude

Unless there was a recent change, both Elizabeth/Nelson Lake and Budd Creek are valid wilderness trailheads, and each has its own quota (15 for Nelson, 5 for Budd; see table II-1: http://www.nps.gov/archive/yose/planning/mrp/html/08_rmrp_ch2.htm). For both of these trailheads, you have to cross over the Cathedral Range to get past the "no camping" zone around Tuolumne Meadows, but otherwise there don't seem to be any first-night stay restrictions for either entrypoint.

The link I posted is from the current NPS Yosemite web site. It is substantially different.

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/trailheads.htm

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Old Dude

Very odd... Both Budd and Nelson (and Rockslides) are included on the list of trailheads on the reservation form (at the bottom of the drop-down list on the form, under "Cross-Country Trailheads": http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/upload/wildpermitform.pdf. (In fact, Budd Lake has no reservations available for several days in August: http://www.yosemite.org/DSN/wwwyosemiteassociationorg/Content/Webcam/rptfulltrailheaddates.htm.) My hunch is that the cross-country trailheads were omitted from the main trailhead page/map to avoid confusion for those not familiar with the area--and in fact I wouldn't recommend either to people not familiar with cross-country travel and navigation.

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basilbop
Very odd... Both Budd and Nelson (and Rockslides) are included on the list of trailheads on the reservation form (at the bottom of the drop-down list on the form, under "Cross-Country Trailheads....

Mike has been grousing ever since they removed the Marmot Mountain trailhead, which starts out at the Tuolumne Meadows High Sierra Camp, from that list.




[Note to relative newcomers to the forum: Mike's fondness for the TMHSC is legend among the older contributors.]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2010 06:44PM by szalkowski.

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szalkowski
[Note to relative newcomers to the forum: Mike's fondness for the TMHSC is legend among the older contributors.]

Newcomers should also see this one: http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?1,7451,7451#msg-7451

Thanks for that link mrcondron...looks like if I take Yarts to TM from Mammoth on a weekday and get there at 9:10am, i should be able to get a Lyell permit....

James

Hey Almost there. I did Whitney from Onion Valley last year with my daughter. I've also done it from Horseshoe meadows. Approaching Whitney from the backside on a multi day trip is the only way to do it. Bring your fishing pole - there are Goldens to be had all along these routes. Beautiful area. Actually the exit permit to come out at the portal are not that hard to get with a few weeks advance reservation or late fall. Absolutely beautiful area.

They've gotten harder to get then. There were NONE available. At all. Anytime.

The fishing and the scenery are a major draw, not really so much the mountain - we are of a mind that if we are having too much fun elsewhere we might not even make it to Whitney. But it's there, and something to do.

I guess I actually planned better last year and got my permit early. If you've done Whitney already then the zoo might be worth avoiding. Have a great trip!

Lessons learned. No need to show up at 4am as I did to get the walk up permit. I was 1st in line and no one else showed up until 6:30. At 7:30 when they opened there was about 20 people in line. Trip was great. The line for campgrounds at TM was worse than the wilderness permit line.

I once showed up at the Mammoth ranger station at 5:30am on Labor Day weekend. Wasn't first in line and was willing to take whatever was available. Only one trailhead was full and I ended up having trouble deciding rather than taking the dregs.

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apeman45
Lessons learned. No need to show up at 4am as I did to get the walk up permit. I was 1st in line and no one else showed up until 6:30.

Took a lot of solitary walks around the parking lot, did we?

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szalkowski

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apeman45
Lessons learned. No need to show up at 4am as I did to get the walk up permit. I was 1st in line and no one else showed up until 6:30.

Took a lot of solitary walks around the parking lot, did we?

Perhaps some aerobic napping?

Eye miss part o dis condensation.

Eye tink eye sey dis before. You can start a hike-on ANYWHERE.
You just needs a permit. Dey will gives you one with a close TH.

Nelson, Budd, Rockslides, Baseline Camp Rd.,.. there's a bunch not on that map
Yea Old Dude mentions. (which is a great map btw).

Once you on da trail.. you can go anywhere you want (you needs to follow that
map and go beyond the arrow though).
Why you'd want to go to Vogelsang after passing by Nelson and Reymann is beyond me though.
I guess you want company? A LOT of it???
You can to Vog. via Lyell... no problem if you want... or via whatever trail you likey.
You just have to START on TH on your permit.

(Bill-e-turkey and his wifey hikey from Eliz. TH past Nelson ... all the way to Emerick xcountry on day 1)
(and he'd do it again)

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apeman45
Lessons learned. No need to show up at 4am as I did to get the walk up permit. I was 1st in line and no one else showed up until 6:30. At 7:30 when they opened there was about 20 people in line. Trip was great. The line for campgrounds at TM was worse than the wilderness permit line.

Week day or weekend?

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tomdisco

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apeman45
Lessons learned. No need to show up at 4am as I did to get the walk up permit. I was 1st in line and no one else showed up until 6:30. At 7:30 when they opened there was about 20 people in line. Trip was great. The line for campgrounds at TM was worse than the wilderness permit line.

Week day or weekend?

See:
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,27483,27483#msg-27483
(Jim, do you navigate this well in the backcountry?)

It was Sunday morning for a Monday permit. This was TM not the valley so that could be different. Yes I napped on my chair as much as possible and ended up finishing the book I planned on reading on the trail. Met a couple nice people and yes walked around the parking lot quite a bit.

I think what I will try on the 18th is to get out of Lee Vining by 6:00AM, permit office by 6:30 first or nearly first in line, pick up my reserved permit, then get breakfast at the TM grill before heading to the trailhead. That should put me at the Cathedral trailhead between 8:30 and 9:00. Trying to do breakfast in Lee Vining just messes everything up.















t

The day you went was a light day so you could have showed up much later and still got the permit you wanted. However, you never know how many people are going to show up which is why it was a good idea for you to get there at 4 am.