Re: Question for the rangers on this board

Memorial Day weekend we were up in Yosemite, exploring the area between Lake Eleanor, Hetch-hetchy, Laurel Lake, etc. (more on that in a separate post...but yeah---lots of snow, lots of water, and lots of weather. We had a lovely time!)

But on Saturday, as we were hiking down from the Beehive towards Hetch-hetchy, we ran into a hiker and his son and their two dogs---all going on a backpacking trip. I asked him if he knew that it was illegal for the dogs to be on the trail in Yosemite. First he told me that his dogs were different---that they didn't chase wildlife, and that he cleaned up after them. Then he told me that he was just "passing through" Yosemite to get to areas outside the park. When I asked him where he was headed, he mentioned Kibbie Ridge (he was on the wrong trail for that) and Laurel Lake. Both of those are still in Yosemite.

So here is my question. When I run into some jerk like this on the trail, who clearly believes that laws are for other people, and not for him....what's the recommended course of action? We were going to be backpacking for another two days. Should I still call the Park Service and tell them about this guy? Same thing would go for someone bait fishing in a catch and release river, or ...?

I usually just inform them that what they are doing is illegal...in case they don't know it. BUt this guy clearly knew it, and just didn't give a rat's patootie....

---

Check our our website: http://www.backpackthesierra.com/
Or just read a good mystery novel set in the Sierra; https://www.amazon.com/Danger-Falling-Rocks-Paul-Wagner/dp/0984884963

In MNSHO you should call it in and let the rangers decide what they want to do about it.

You should tell a law enforcement ranger. They might not do anything, but they might keep an eye out at the trail head. You could tell the entrance station rangers, but they can only relay the information and it's best for info like this to come directly from the source.

Dogs are not allowed on any wilderness trail inside the park. One place that is an exception is the little piece of trail that cuts into the park on the way to Lord's Meadow near Sachse Spring and a bit west of Styz Pass. You can pass through there with a dog. This is the Kibbie Ridge he was talking about and it starts at the trailhead at Shingle spring which is outside the park.

It's conceivable he was heading to Kibbie Ridge from Hetch Hetchy but no dogs are allowed on the trails with a trailhead inside the park.

Report this stuff to any ranger and the info can be radioed to the backcountry rangers that may be out.

---

Old Dude



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2011 12:57AM by mrcondron.

Quote
mrcondron
Dogs are not allowed on any wilderness trail inside the park. One place that is an exception is the little piece of trail that cuts into the park on the way to Lord's Meadow near Sachse Spring and a bit west of Styz Pass. You can pass through there with a dog. This is the Kibbie Ridge he was talking about and it starts at the trailhead at Shingle spring which is outside the park.

It's conceivable he was heading to Kibbie Ridge from Hetch Hetchy but no dogs are allowed on the trails with a trailhead inside the park.

Report this stuff to any ranger and the info can be radioed to the backcountry rangers that may be out.

Yes, dogs are illegal within the park as everyone has stated. The Kibbie Ridge trailhead is a bit of a gray area, but in my opinion even though it dips into the Park, dogs are legal (or you could make the argument that you stayed cross country and did not bring the dog in the Park). That being said, I have gone on trips out of Kibbie Ridge and my friend has brought his dog. If there was a ticket given for that, that is one that I would fight in court and believe there would be more than a fair shot of winning. In a similar situation, I heard a story many many years ago of a hunter who had hiked out the ridge (legally during hunting season, and had the proper tags) and was on the trail at Sachse Springs and a Ranger came across him, cited him and confiscated the guns. He took it to court and won and got the ticket dismissed. And no, I don't have any court case numbers or an online link to back it up, but it was told to me by a friend that is a local and has always been on top of things.

Also, I have a friend who went out of Kennedy Meadows with a horsepacker, and twelve miles into the ride, the guy's dog shows up, having escaped from the truck that the horsepacker's coworker was going to drive back and caught up with the group. That far in, it was too late to go back. They were going out Eleanor and sure enough as they ride by the Ranger's cabin (which, that has got to be the sweetest post in the park), the Ranger was barbequing some fish on his front porch. The Ranger pulls out his book and cites the horsepacker who's dog it is. As well he should have. There's quite a bit of difference of dipping into the park on the Kibbie Ridge trail that starts and ends outside of the park, and traveling on miles of trails and ending up inside the park.

While I personally have no problem with well behaved dogs (and I sense that the illustrious chick-on will disagree with me on this point) going on backpacking trips and I disagree with the rules in the Yosemite as pertaining to dogs, they are the rules and should be enforced equally for all.

Balzaa, while he technically could get out Kibbie ridge from going out Hetchy, it would be a helluva hike, with the vast majority of it in the Park. Going up the switchbacks, up to Beehive, over to Laurel, drop down to Eleanor via the hidden Frog Creek trail or Miguel Meadows, go around the lake, then climb up to the Kibbie trailhead at Shingle Springs. Just to get to the trailhead you're covering a LOT of miles in the park, so yeah obviously he was full of BS. And he sounds like the typical A-hole who believes the rules/laws only apply to other people.

The whole thing is kind of weird, if he went out of Hetchy, I doubt the Ranger would give him the permit at the booth with 2 dogs in the car, you've got to notice that. Unless he drove through without the ranger noticing and parked and walked back to retrieve the permit. He could have gotten the permit from the Groveland Ranger district and gone out Eleanor, and then taken the dogs. I don't think the seasonal ranger takes up residence until June. But the whole thing is screwy. Who knows if he even got a permit at all?

On top of all that, being on the trail up to Beehive with dogs is incredibly stupid. You're breaking the rules in a very heavily patrolled area of the park. The only trail I've seen more rangers on than the Hetchy Trail is the trail out of Ten Lakes.

I know this post has gone on long enough, but I just got off work and feel like rambling, so I'll tell another long winded story that I read. If you've ever visited the Ranger shack at Miguel Meadows out of Eleanor, they have a log book that goes back years. Reading the entries, and there was an interesting occurance in the 90s. They had closed it down for the winter, and in late October or so a ranger was out on patrol, and he comes upon the cabin in Miguel Meadows. He sees that it has been violently broken into. He goes in the cabin and sees that the contents of the fridge/freezer have been emptied and there's blood in the fridge. Apparently poachers had dipped into the park, shot some game and used the ranger cabin freezer to cure their ill gotten game. Now that is a ballsy lawbreaker on an unbelievable level!

I disagree. You on trail in Yosemite. No dogs. Period.
I don't know if you remember it... but Old Dude... we were hiking out of Mercur
area once and an older guy had his dog. You could tell that he knew darn
well that he was in the wrong. And then he said he used to be a ranger.
Nice.
You can't "pass" thru. Prove me wrong though and call Groveland and ask
for permit for Lords and say you have dogs.

Since they lie... I have taken the tact to just say I just saw a ranger and let them sweat it.

---

Good idea, Bill. That hadn't occured to me! And yeah--given the conditions, even with plenty of time, these guys were never going get out of the park on their trip!

---

Check our our website: http://www.backpackthesierra.com/
Or just read a good mystery novel set in the Sierra; https://www.amazon.com/Danger-Falling-Rocks-Paul-Wagner/dp/0984884963

Quote
chick-on

You can't "pass" thru.

Chick-on,
Linda did it with her dog some years ago. Blessed by the rangers. Things may be different now.

---

Old Dude

Quote
mrcondron

Quote
chick-on

You can't "pass" thru.

Chick-on,
Linda did it with her dog some years ago. Blessed by the rangers. Things may be different now.

Hmmm...
I will ask next time I get a permit. It would be good to know. Have seen dogs around Lookout and
also on the trail a couple of times. It irritates the crapola out of me so if they truely are allowed I wanna know..
then I won't get my undies in a bundle...
I don't see No Dogs on a number of my permits so you are probably right... but I also say that
I don't want to go to Kibbie and I don't have any guns or dogs long before they ask anything.

---

Quote
chick-on
I will ask next time I get a permit. It would be good to know. Have seen dogs around Lookout and
also on the trail a couple of times. It irritates the crapola out of me so if they truely are allowed I wanna know..

Saw one on the Mist Trail last year. Big german shepard.

I've seen dogs on a variety of trails. I also saw a couple people and their dog escorted off the trail and fined. They catch 'em, they ticket 'em.

Quote
chick-on

Quote
mrcondron

Quote
chick-on

You can't "pass" thru.

Chick-on,
Linda did it with her dog some years ago. Blessed by the rangers. Things may be different now.

Hmmm...
I will ask next time I get a permit. It would be good to know. Have seen dogs around Lookout and
also on the trail a couple of times. It irritates the crapola out of me so if they truely are allowed I wanna know..
then I won't get my undies in a bundle...
I don't see No Dogs on a number of my permits so you are probably right... but I also say that
I don't want to go to Kibbie and I don't have any guns or dogs long before they ask anything.

I'm pretty sure it's dogs OK in the NF and other wilderness areas but not in the park except where specifically allowed ie. the non-wilderness designated areas you can drive to.

Even well behaved dogs bring urban diseases to the wilderness and do crap on the ground. They are very likely to harass animals too. Keep them home.

---

Old Dude

Quote
mrcondron
I'm pretty sure it's dogs OK in the NF and other wilderness areas but not in the park except where specifically allowed ie. the non-wilderness designated areas you can drive to.

Even well behaved dogs bring urban diseases to the wilderness and do crap on the ground. They are very likely to harass animals too. Keep them home.

An exception has generally been made for service animals. The accessibility guide mentions that they must be leashed. I'm not 100% sure what "stock trail" means, but I'm guessing it means trails which are only meant for stock use (i.e. horse trails).

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/upload/access.pdf

Quote

Service Animals
In Yosemite, service animals are allowed in all facilities and on all trails, with the exceptions of stock trails and areas closed by the superintendent to protect park resources. Service animals must always be leashed. Service animals in training and pets are subject to other park regulations (see www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/pets.htm). Traveling times in the park may be longer than anticipated. When traveling with an animal, carry water, and allow for stops. Dispose of pet feces in a trash bin.

A follow up note. Got a call back from someone in the Wilderness Office. No dogs are allowed on trails in YNP. And they were very appreciative of my information. They were going to send a ranger out looking for this guy and hoped to catch him and fine him.

---

Check our our website: http://www.backpackthesierra.com/
Or just read a good mystery novel set in the Sierra; https://www.amazon.com/Danger-Falling-Rocks-Paul-Wagner/dp/0984884963

Quote
balzaccom
A follow up note. Got a call back from someone in the Wilderness Office. No dogs are allowed on trails in YNP. And they were very appreciative of my information. They were going to send a ranger out looking for this guy and hoped to catch him and fine him.

Was there any mention of whether or not is allowed???

---

The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

My understanding is that Chick-on has spent so much time in the back country that the NPS considers him a native species.

---

Check our our website: http://www.backpackthesierra.com/
Or just read a good mystery novel set in the Sierra; https://www.amazon.com/Danger-Falling-Rocks-Paul-Wagner/dp/0984884963

Quote
balzaccom
My understanding is that Chick-on has spent so much time in the back country that the NPS considers him a native species.

More of an "invasive exotic."

Quote
balzaccom
My understanding is that Chick-on has spent so much time in the back country that the NPS considers him a native species.

Chick-on will never have offspring though. "He's" a one-off.

---

Old Dude

Quote
mrcondron
Chick-on will never have offspring though. "He's" a one-off.

Your ing judgmental 'cause he's PINK (then, again, there was THAT picture)

---

The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

,
yew not careful... eye get that campsite with the free bacon and smack you up with da bacon.
I'll have those free glasses on too sew you not even nose it was me.
(btw eye an evasive species)

---

Quote
chick-on
,
yew not careful... eye get that campsite with the free bacon and smack you up with da bacon.
I'll have those free glasses on too sew you not even nose it was me.
(btw eye an evasive species)

Olde Dude started it! He has been spreading rumours about Chick-on ALLLLLL over dah place!!

---

The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

Seems fair...Chick-On posts photos of Old Dude, Old Dude posts rumors about Chick-On.

Quote
Bee

Quote
balzaccom
A follow up note. Got a call back from someone in the Wilderness Office. No dogs are allowed on trails in YNP. And they were very appreciative of my information. They were going to send a ranger out looking for this guy and hoped to catch him and fine him.

Was there any mention of whether or not is allowed???

They have to be on a leash.

There have always been those who don't bother with obtaining wilderness permits just as there are those that regularly park at trailheads as soon as dusk settles then wander off into the nearby forests to stealth camp. And some will carry a handgun for protection while others will try and sneak fido in.

Back in the 70s on a visit to Laural Lake someone brought in a big dog. At that time the lake and Beehive was imfamous for bears. Well the first bear, a big nasty black furred beast with a radio collar that came around saw that dog, the dog barked, and bear immediately ran full boar at the dog. The dog fled into the lake with the owner screaming to high heaven about the bear is going to kill <whatshisname>. Bear would have too. Of course most public campground bears are quick to run off when any dog barks as they have learned people are quick to wake up. The backcountry can be different.

When I see people breaking important rules out in the backcountry like camping too close to lakes or making illegal campfires at higher elevations, I am one that often confronts people calmly usually asking them an indirect question to get a sense of whether they understand what they are doing. Some obviously are clueless thus have never been lectured by a permit office person and probably have no permit while others are just chronic cheaters like those that habitually litter when they think no one is looking. So upon sizing up a situation will suggest in well crafted terms how they ought consider rectifying their activity.

Simple reality in today's culture is a fair percentage of people are quick to break rules and policy, much less laws, if it suits them and they think they can get away with it. Accordingly the only way we can hope to make a dent in such behaviors is with at least some level of enforcement that bears a threat of penalty and peer pressure from communities like this.

David Senesac
http://www.davidsenesac.com



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2011 10:10PM by DavidSenesac.