Re: water

just over a week away from our 6-day trip around the valley. ever concerned about packweight, i'd rather not carry any water i don't need to. i gotta believe that finding water will be the least of my worries (let me know if this is a candidate for "understatement of the year". my idea is to not carry water during the day at all in my hydration platy -- hear me out -- with my steripen (ultravioltet water sterilizer) i figure to simply dip water from any source throughout the day and, within a minute or so, guzzle a liter, and move on. only later in the day, when nearing or at camp, would i think about loading up my bottles for cooking, the evening and next day's coffee/breakfast. what do you early season yosemite veterans think of this idea?

I'm not a seasoned veteran by any stretch, but on my one trip I strapped an empty one gallon PETE bottle (used to be Crystal Geyser) to the outside of my pack. It barely weighed anything, but was useful when I needed to collecting water for cooking and eventual disinfection. It rather flopped around, but again the weight was negligible.

I don't think they sell them quite the same. Now they use some reinforced paper handle that's taped to the top. They used to have a plastic handle. I've seen other brands sell a similar 1 gallon setup.

Not sure about relying on a pen, but I supposed they work fairly well. If the water has a lot of particles, isn't there a chance that the UV can't reach something protected in a bit of organic matter (hint hint). I figured that filters obviously filter them out, and disinfection tablets eventually penetrate through such material. Do you have tablets as a backup?

thanks. i really like the platypus style "soft bottles" for water carrying/storage -- like the gallon jug you've used, they weigh next to nothing but also collapse to near nothing when empty. as far as "organic matter", if present, i do plan on filtering through a bandana to catch the big chunkies. what has your experience been with the general clarity of water sources?

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y_p_w
Not sure about relying on a pen, but I supposed they work fairly well. If the water has a lot of particles, isn't there a chance that the UV can't reach something protected in a bit of organic matter (hint hint). I figured that filters obviously filter them out, and disinfection tablets eventually penetrate through such material. Do you have tablets as a backup?

Actually, while the makers of SteriPen® state that their pen can be used on most snowmelt water, they do mention in their FAQ if the water is too pure, the pen might not work. The remedy is to add a pinch of salt to the water, or a couple of drops of Gatorade® (or of another beverage that contains electrolytes) to the water:

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From SteriPEN website FAQ

"Does SteriPEN work in snow-melt waters?

Yes, SteriPEN water purifiers effectively disinfect snow melt waters. In some very rare instances, the SteriPEN may not readily activate if the water is so pure that there is not enough trace mineral content to cause the water sensors to recognize that the unit is submerged in water. Very pure water is a poor electrical conductor -- the sensors may not conduct enough electricity to recognize the water. This can easily be corrected by adding a small pinch of salt, or a drop or two of some kind of electrolyte beverage to the water."

In Yosemite it's not the clarity I'd worry about. It's the e. coli, giardia and assorted things that happen when people are swimming, wading, and doing rather unmentionable things in the water, or leading entire pack trains through it on a regular basis. The water looks great, most of the time, 'cept for pollen covered lakes.

Water springing out of a rock above 10,000 feet, I don't worry so much.

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AlmostThere
Water springing out of a rock above 10,000 feet, I don't worry so much.

But you never know when there's a camped above you.

Actually the issue is the rodentia. Mice and large Marmuts frequent the highlands
in an attempt to evade me. In that realm I always filter and always do a hot wash
of anything eating with or out of before doing so. (I won't make you read into it...
they like to poopy in your cups and bowls)
And Marmuts are known kleptomaniacs to boot.

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sound advice, thanks. around the midwest and on the AT, i have typically used an MSR pump/filter (17 oz) because the water is often "cloudy and musty". however, i just figured that the "high sierra" water would generally be "clear and tasty" and would simply use the steripen (4 oz) to kill the nasties.

I use the steripen on many trips. To give you an idea... used it last year Sept. 24th.
Everyone and their brother around Sunrise HSC was whining "omg there's no water anywhere".
Complete and utter bollocks.

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You will have so much water you won't know what to do with it all.

Seriously, quit worrying. And the water will be crystal clear.

May be interested in this:
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,32423,32423#msg-32423

But... every single dingle intermittent stream on that thar Topo you a looking at.
That will have 2 parts Hydrogen and a 1 part Oxygen a flowing freely.

I carry 1 litre so can drink at will. If I supersaturate I end up tinkling on the trail every
2 minutes... (instead of the normal every 5).

Have fun

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2011 06:53PM by chick-on.

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chick-on
You will have so much water you won't know what to do with it all.

Seriously, quit worrying. And the water will be crystal clear.

May be interested in this:
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,32423,32423#msg-32423

But... every single dingle intermittent stream on that thar Topo you a looking at.
That will have 2 parts Hydrogen and a 1 part Oxygen a flowing freely.

I carry 1 litre so can drink at will. If I supersaturate I end up tinkling on the trail every
2 minutes... (instead of the normal every 5).

Have fun

mtc:
Listen to Chick-on.
(There are some people around that would recommend that you carry an industrial grade deionized water unit with you at all times... which would also be useful if you wanted to deplete your body of electrolytes.)

On a tangential subject, I seem to recall somewhere that you were planning to spend your second night somewhere around Yosemite Falls. Be advised that there is a no camping zone around the falls. It basically extends to the 6.8k elevation level both along the trail heading N up Yosemite Creek and going E. It is shown on the National Geographic Trails Illustrated Map of the area.

I used my Steripen in the Merced and I didn't die. I assume that's probably one of the dirtier streams in Yosemite?

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dqniel
I used my Steripen in the Merced and I didn't die. I assume that's probably one of the dirtier streams in Yosemite?

Most people don't realize they contracted a water born illness:

Symptoms of giardiasis normally begin 1 to 3 weeks after becoming infected.

Well I used it in 2007. I think if I was going to become symptomatic it would have happened by now :p

I realize it might have done absolutely nothing and my immune system just took care of it, or there were not high amounts of pathogenic monsters in the sample I took, but I was just stating that my limited experience with it has been positive.

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dqniel
I used my Steripen in the Merced and I didn't die. I assume that's probably one of the dirtier streams in Yosemite?

I bought a SteriPen (Opti Adventurer, or somesuch) early last year and have used it since.

It has worked fine on snow melt, both stove-melted water and melt dripping off the side of a rock. It's worked fine on clear mountain streams, in CA, in Yellowstone, and in the Wind River Range.

I wouldn't use it where I expected to rely on glacial outflow, both because of the 'cloudy water' issue and because I don't want to chew water. That needs a field-cleanable filter.

I wouldn't use it on Isle Royale, or other areas with tapeworms that aren't killed by most devices. That, too, needs a filter.

I wouldn't use it on still water in Henry Coe SP, where I find the unfiltered lake water has an unpleasant algal taste. Likewise, I'd use a filter. That one's a choice rather than a requirement.

I wouldn't use it in Boundary Waters, where some of the water is heavily tannic...I'd take my MSR MIOX thingie.

Beyond those exceptions, I'd use my SteriPen.

Hopefully this isn't too much of a tangent since this topic is more about where/how, but here are the best articles I've found on water, and looky there, one's from the Yosemite Association. It's getting a little dated, but the pdf is more recent

Giardia Lamblia and Giardiasis
With Particular Attention to the Sierra Nevada
by Robert L. Rockwell, PhD

[warning: PDF file]
Giardia Myth-Buster: How Rumor and Paranoia Have Created a False Industry Standard By Erik Schlimmer

I'd never advise anyone to not filter their water, that's up to your choices and your comfort level. It should be obvious that park authorities aren't the ones to take literally regarding the safety of wilderness water, they have liability issues to contend with and as the articles state, Giardia and other water borne illnesses are often misunderstood. I welcome any corrections or additional sources; I'm always looking for more factual information on this topic.

Be well.

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Treeswing
Hopefully this isn't too much of a tangent since this topic is more about where/how, but here are the best articles I've found on water, and looky there, one's from the Yosemite Association. It's getting a little dated, but the pdf is more recent

Giardia Lamblia and Giardiasis
With Particular Attention to the Sierra Nevada
by Robert L. Rockwell, PhD

[warning: PDF file]
Giardia Myth-Buster: How Rumor and Paranoia Have Created a False Industry Standard By Erik Schlimmer

I'd never advise anyone to not filter their water, that's up to your choices and your comfort level. It should be obvious that park authorities aren't the ones to take literally regarding the safety of wilderness water, they have liability issues to contend with and as the articles state, Giardia and other water borne illnesses are often misunderstood. I welcome any corrections or additional sources; I'm always looking for more factual information on this topic.

Be well.

Thanks for those links. Very informative.

I have often consumed untreated water from less traveled areas in the Sierras and have never once had a problem, although I do routinely filter and treat my water.

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Treeswing
Hopefully this isn't too much of a tangent since this topic is more about where/how, but here are the best articles I've found on water, and looky there, one's from the Yosemite Association. It's getting a little dated, but the pdf is more recent

Giardia Lamblia and Giardiasis
With Particular Attention to the Sierra Nevada
by Robert L. Rockwell, PhD

[warning: PDF file]
Giardia Myth-Buster: How Rumor and Paranoia Have Created a False Industry Standard By Erik Schlimmer

I'd never advise anyone to not filter their water, that's up to your choices and your comfort level. It should be obvious that park authorities aren't the ones to take literally regarding the safety of wilderness water, they have liability issues to contend with and as the articles state, Giardia and other water borne illnesses are often misunderstood. I welcome any corrections or additional sources; I'm always looking for more factual information on this topic.

Be well.

Makes me want to give serious consideration to replacing my 3/4-lb Katadyn water filter with hand sanitizer.

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tomdisco

Makes me want to give serious consideration to replacing my 3/4-lb Katadyn water filter with hand sanitizer.

I always carry with me a small 2 oz. bottle of hand sanitizer. (That size bottle would last for an entire week.) But it's also good to carry individual packets of hand-sanitizer wipes when hiking or backpacking, because liquid sanitizer doesn't do too much good for you when you hands become gritty with dirt. You would need wipes to clean the hands then. The sanitizing wipes are also good for disinfecting the lips of the bottles you drink from and any utensils you would use for eating or cooking.

Do they make hand sanitizer without perfume?

None are orderless, to the best of my recollection, through the standard Purell lotion (the non-Aloe Vera one), doesn't have a strong scent, IMO, but it does have a slight scent.

As a precaution, I leave the hand sanitizer with my toothpaste (and other non-food scented items) inside a ziplock bag in a bear box, or a bear canister overnight. No reason to take any chances, IMHO.

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plawrence
None are orderless, to the best of my recollection, through the standard Purell lotion (the non-Aloe Vera one), doesn't have a strong scent, IMO, but it does have a slight scent.

As a precaution, I leave the hand sanitizer with my toothpaste (and other non-food scented items) inside a ziplock bag in a bear box, or a bear canister overnight. No reason to take any chances, IMHO.

I've seen giveaways of benzalkonium chloride based hand sanitizer that were a foaming pump liquid, but with no fragrance. I've also come across some unscented alcohol sprays. Not sure about the gels though. There are a lot of different unscented hand sanitizers - both alcohol and other types. Clorox sells some, but they're primarily for large institutional applications, like hospitals and factories. They've got the big ones for wall dispensers, as well as 2oz bottles:

http://www.cloroxprofessional.com/products/handsanitizer.shtml

There are several brands of unscented hand sanitizer, but again they're primarily from the institutional divisions of companies like Dial or Clorox.

I remember Wet Ones Outdoors. However - the only place I ever saw it was at some Wal-Mart stores in the outdoors section, and haven't seen it stocked in a couple of years. It's benzethonium chloride, which can only be marketed as killing bacteria, but supposedly has a wide range including viruses. I would avoid the new Wet Ones "citrus" scent, which vaguely smells like a piña colada. I recall some ads in those national park guides (the green ones that some sites hand out) for Wet Ones Antibacterial. The picture was of an outhouse and some caption about where one's hands have been.

http://www.playtexproductsinc.com/wetones/wo_outdoors.asp

I understand that benzethonium chloride and benzalkonium chloride have a residual germ-killing effect on skin, although they can't be marketed as such. Alcohol of course requires full-strength to kill germs, and once it has evaporated it's gone.

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plawrence
None are orderless, to the best of my recollection, through the standard Purell lotion (the non-Aloe Vera one), doesn't have a strong scent, IMO, but it does have a slight scent.

As a precaution, I leave the hand sanitizer with my toothpaste (and other non-food scented items) inside a ziplock bag in a bear box, or a bear canister overnight. No reason to take any chances, IMHO.

Although it can be argued that sterile technique is beneficial, I get the impression these days that there is an obsession with sanitizing everything that is a probable misapplication of effort. For example, if one handles the outside of the sanitizer container with contaminated hands that surface is contaminated. It the tooth brush or toothbrush container contacts that surface, it will become contaminated. The goal in the situation of gastrointestinal illnesses discussed here is to disrupt the fecal-oral route. Cooking food to boiling, using utensils, avoiding putting hands in the mouth, and just rinsing hands in a stream probably do more than relying on a hand sanitizer. For example, say you want to clean your dirty hands-- you get the handsanitizer out of your pack (contaminating the outside of the bottle), then dispense a bit of sanitizer, then set the bottle down to rub hands together and let them dry. When you pick the sanitizer bottle up your hands get contaminated again! Unless a person is planning on doing surgery in the woods, there just is a level of asepsis that must be tolerated.

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

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Frank Furter
For example, say you want to clean your dirty hands-- you get the hand sanitizer out of your pack (contaminating the outside of the bottle), then dispense a bit of sanitizer, then set the bottle down to rub hands together and let them dry. When you pick the sanitizer bottle up your hands get contaminated again!

Uh no. That's not how one would use a hand sanitizer.

To use it effectively is simple and straightforward:

1. Take the small bottle of hand sanitizer out of your pocket.
2. Squirt a small amount of the liquid gel into your other hand.
3. Put the small bottle of hand sanitizer back into your pocket (easily done with just the one hand that was holding the bottle).
4. Rub the hand that has the hand sanitizer gel with the other hand, throughly, until the sanitizer gel has evaporated.

Voilà! Both of your hands are now 99.99% germ-free!

(It really is quite easy once you get the hang of it!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 12:19AM by plawrence.

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plawrence


Voilà! Both of your hands are now 99.9% germ-free!

Sounds great only 1/1000 left.
However that is another misunderstanding--- if you have 10⁶ infectious units you would still have 10³ after 99.9% reduction.

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

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Frank Furter

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plawrence


Voilà! Both of your hands are now 99.9% germ-free!

Sounds great only 1/1000 left.
However that is another misunderstanding--- if you have 10⁶ infectious units you would still have 10³ after 99.9% reduction.

Actually, after reading the bottle, I see that Purell actually claims to kill 99.99% of germs (so I was a little conservative in my initial claim).

And as you probably know, you don't have to kill every single germ to avoid getting sick, but just enough of them so your body's own immune system can win the battle against the remaining germs. So for all intents and purposes, a hand sanitizer like Purell is quite effective in doing its job.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 12:42PM by plawrence.

I'm a fan of good ol' soap n water, but will use sanitizer as a quick wash even though I don't believe the marketing - Kills 99.9% of Germs -- Under Some Lab Conditions

Soap and water does works great if done correctly, yet most people don't usually wash their hands with soap and water for the required length of time (rubbing the hands with soap for at least 20 seconds). Also out in the wilderness, when backpacking, using soap without polluting the ground or nearby streams with soapy water is usually very problematic.

If one knows how alcohol gel-based hand sanitizers, like Purell, work, then one will understand their limitations. These alcohol-based sanitizers work in a very simple manner to kill germs: the alcohol simply breaks down the cell walls of the germs and they die. That's it. Nothing really fancy about it.

The biggest limitation of a gel-based hand sanitizer is that the hands have to be clean from grit and dirt. In the wilderness that means you will probably need to wash and rinse you hands with plain water and then possibly use a hand-wipe to remove the grit and dirt, before applying a gel-based hand sanitizer to disinfect your hands. But that's still easier to do than finding an environmentally sound way to properly disposed of soapy water in the wilderness, if you tried to wash your hands with just soap and water out there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 12:38PM by plawrence.

A "cell wall" is only found in plant cells. Now bacteria to have cell membranes. Alcohol effectively causes bacteria to burst and can cause the protein coat in viruses to degrade.

Still - there are limits as to how the manufacturers/sellers can market these preparations. Alcohol will kill most viruses, but they can't specifically mention that because there are some viruses that are resistant. Most retail preparations are 62% alcohol, but many of the industrial or medical versions are 70+%. I've read of recommendations for use in a dirty environment, where it's recommended to apply with a paper towel to scrub off as much "soil" as possible.

I mentioned benzethonium chloride based cleaners. They still have a residual germ killing activity when dry, while alcohol simply evaporates. I've used those wipes, and it's a bit easier to scrub off dirt with a wipe rather than a spray or gel.

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y_p_w
A "cell wall" is only found in plant cells. Now bacteria to have cell membranes.

"They are found in plants, bacteria, fungi, algae, and some archaea. Animals and protozoa do not have cell walls."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2011 11:50AM by eeek.

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eeek

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y_p_w
A "cell wall" is only found in plant cells. Now bacteria to have cell membranes.

"They are found in plants, bacteria, fungi, algae, and some archaea. Animals and protozoa do not have cell walls."

OK - it's been a while since I took HS biology.

However - it's not the cell wall that generally breaks down due to exposure to alcohol, but the cell membrane. The bacteria will weaken then burst through the compromised membrane. I also recall that a water/alcohol mixture is more effective than relatively pure alcohol. The bacteria will let in the water, along with the alcohol. Nearly pure alcohol will be rejected by the bacteria.

This might help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinfectant

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tomdisco


Makes me want to give serious consideration to replacing my 3/4-lb Katadyn water filter with hand sanitizer.

You can do that. Since I have personal knowledge of 10 verified cases of giardia and where they picked it up, I'll take the filter just the same.

Frankly, I have better things to do with my time and money than to suffer from any illness of any severity.

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AlmostThere

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tomdisco


Makes me want to give serious consideration to replacing my 3/4-lb Katadyn water filter with hand sanitizer.

You can do that. Since I have personal knowledge of 10 verified cases of giardia and where they picked it up, I'll take the filter just the same.

Frankly, I have better things to do with my time and money than to suffer from any illness of any severity.

Where'd they get it?

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dqniel

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AlmostThere

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tomdisco


Makes me want to give serious consideration to replacing my 3/4-lb Katadyn water filter with hand sanitizer.

You can do that. Since I have personal knowledge of 10 verified cases of giardia and where they picked it up, I'll take the filter just the same.

Frankly, I have better things to do with my time and money than to suffer from any illness of any severity.

Where'd they get it?

That doesn't matter.

Why? Because bacterial loads shift and change just like the water depth and flow, just like the bears wander around, the snakes slither everywhere from 100 - 11,000 feet in elevation, and the weather changes. Just because you catch it in one river one day last fall doesn't mean you'll catch it again the next time you go.

We hike from the coast to the high reaches of the sierra, and we filter, because everyone and their brother's dog can catch a bug anywhere, anytime. I filter all the time because my chances of getting it are higher simply because I am filtering water in the backcountry several times a month, whereas if I went backpacking once a year, I decrease the odds significantly. There are too many variables. Such as, all the cases I'm aware of were contracted in the Sierra, because when we do low elevation coastal hiking the sources LOOK dicey - shallow, algae filled springs and the like. People will filter those because it doesn't look clean. In the mountains, I've seen folks just dip the nalgene in, and walk off. Looks good! Except when they get home and a week later the dog is having uncontrollable diarrhea and generally sick, and then the vet diagnoses giardia.

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Treeswing
I'm always looking for more factual information on this topic.

Be well.

check articles written by Robert Derlet, MD from UC Davis:
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?1,24648,24656#msg-24656

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The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan

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Frank Furter

check articles written by Robert Derlet, MD from UC Davis:
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?1,24648,24656#msg-24656

Since the above referenced thread mentioned a 404 article in the SacBee, here is an archive for it.

Derlet does seem to be exclusively focused on coliform, but it's relevant and useful even though most people fear Giardiasis more than these other kinds of poop-givers. Found another of his articles in full that's more specific:

Backpacking in Yosemite and Kings Canyon National Parks and Neighboring Wilderness Areas: How Safe Is the Water to Drink?

btw, I filter, but am considering other options for certain places at certain times. Seems wise to have better knowledge of the tiny things that can kick your ass!

Fascinating articles. I'm surprised there is not more debate. Everyone here seems to accept the wisdom that treatment or filtering is necessary. And I'm not ready to differ from that yet because most of the time "conventional wisdom" is established for a reason. Besides anecdotal stories from hikers and their experiences I wish there was actually more science and testing. Or maybe there is?

I would think that a government agency that's responsible for monitoring water purity and the heath of rivers and streams like the EPA would test rivers, lakes, and streams on a more regular basis for Giardia and other bugs.

I've never been past Nevada Falls, but where are the cows in the High Sierra at Yosemite?

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chicagocwright
I've never been past Nevada Falls, but where are the cows in the High Sierra at Yosemite?

They can be found lining the cables going up Half Dome.
We prefer to call them cattle.
(NotLemmingsOurselvesly Yours)
The Marmots

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THE YOSEMITE POST
Voice of the Rocky Marmot Empire



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2011 02:04PM by szalkowski.

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chicagocwright
I've never been past Nevada Falls, but where are the cows in the High Sierra at Yosemite?

Thanks goodness there now Cows in Yosemite.... but:

http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,28235

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2011 06:06PM by chick-on.

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chick-on
there now Cows in Yosemite

How now?

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eeek

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chick-on
there now Cows in Yosemite

How now?

Brown Cow

Brown Chicken, Brown Cow

Question: Who are the sexiest animals in the barnyard?

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chick-on
Question: Who are the sexiest animals in the barnyard?

Do ewe really want to know?