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Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online

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avatar Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 09:52AM

A citizens group wants to end Yosemite National Park's limits on the number of hikers who make the final spine-tingling scramble 400 feet up to the top of Half Dome.
[p]

The group, SaveHalfDome.com, has begun an online petition drive urging the National Park Service to stop requiring permits to climb the world-famous precipice and allow more hikers to flirt with danger on the summit cables if they want to, preferably after a third cable is installed on the sloping granite slab.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/07/10/MNI21K7367.DTL
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 11:01AM
Why not just put in a freeway?
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 11:29AM
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Dave

Why not just put in a freeway?

Not necessary. Just build an aerial tram from the valley floor. That ought to suffice. wink
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 01:39PM
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plawrence
Not necessary. Just build an aerial tram from the valley floor. That ought to suffice. wink
Good point. Then put in rails to keep people from falling off the edge, a nice retail store and good court would be great too.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins on-line
July 11, 2011 01:46PM
I support the HD permits. However, the current implementation is VERY lacking. A system must be put in place that eliminates scalping. To me it seems simple enough to require a name at the time you get the permit and then not allow it to be transfered. When checking the permit also require ID. Cancellations are not immediately put back on-line.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins on-line
July 11, 2011 03:09PM
If the Park Service decides to keep the permits (which is probably a good thing, overall) the changes they need to make are two fold. First, half the permits should be allocated on a first-come, first-served basis only available the day before the date of the hike.

The other half of the permits could be reserved ahead of time, but they're not transferable and the person holding the reservation needs to pick them up with a valid ID. Also, if that person cancels their reservation, that permit can no longer be reserved. Instead, it will be added to the pool of the first-come, first-served permits available the day before the hike.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins on-line
July 13, 2011 10:52AM
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plawrence
If the Park Service decides to keep the permits (which is probably a good thing, overall) the changes they need to make are two fold. First, half the permits should be allocated on a first-come, first-served basis only available the day before the date of the hike.

The other half of the permits could be reserved ahead of time, but they're not transferable and the person holding the reservation needs to pick them up with a valid ID. Also, if that person cancels their reservation, that permit can no longer be reserved. Instead, it will be added to the pool of the first-come, first-served permits available the day before the hike.

This to me seems like the most sensible of suggestions.

I also think the permits & permit reservations should have some bold print cautionary advice regarding judicious departure time, length in miles (round trip), total altitude gain, need to carry ample water, need for proper clothing and footwear, high altitude go/no-go decision making in presence of impending storm clouds, need to be in good physical shape, etc. Some of this may already be on the permits; I've never seen one. Only downside to cautionary advice is that it requires people to actually read it. O.K., "Here, read this. There's going to be a test!"bear trap
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 03:03PM
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Dave
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plawrence
Not necessary. Just build an aerial tram from the valley floor. That ought to suffice. wink

Good point. Then put in rails to keep people from falling off the edge, a nice retail store and good court would be great too.

And to top it off, a five-star restaurant run by Alice Waters or Wolfgang Puck. Just think: Spago with a view!
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 09:24PM
I would Funny bee satisfied with a Starbuck's, so that I could have a Venti Hot Chocolate with whip cream waiting on the top as an incentive to do the cables again!


The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
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[email protected]
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 09:25PM
What a nightmarish thought. Please no more.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 10:24AM
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[email protected]
What a nightmarish thought. Please no more.

How about sodium vapor lighting to occomodate 24-hour activity?
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hotrod4x5
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 10:33AM
I think an elevator hidden inside of Half Dome would be the best option. It would leave the least visible footprint on the landscape. A door near Mirror Lake and a small building on top of HD for the machinery. Charge people $20 a head round trip or $10 one way. They could make a killing. You can still control the number of people on top, much like they do for the fake Eiffel tower in Las Vegas. If it's too crowded up there, then no one goes up till some come down.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 12:32PM
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hotrod4x5
I think an elevator hidden inside of Half Dome would be the best option. It would leave the least visible footprint on the landscape. A door near Mirror Lake and a small building on top of HD for the machinery. Charge people $20 a head round trip or $10 one way. They could make a killing. You can still control the number of people on top, much like they do for the fake Eiffel tower in Las Vegas. If it's too crowded up there, then no one goes up till some come down.

I alway thought it would be a cool idea to build an elevator inside Glacier Point, so tourist could just take an elevator from Curry Village to the top of Glacier Point. Just think about how many fewer cars would then be on Yosemite roads, especially the Glacier Point Road. smiling smiley
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 03:47PM
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Dave
Why not just put in a freeway?

I wonder how many more years it will take for the granite to become so polished that it will be essentially impossible to use the cables?
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 11:08AM
The best part of the article is this gem:

"We do not see how adding a third cable would provide any wilderness values," Gediman said. "We're just not going to do it. It's not going to happen."


Chick-on is looking at you!
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chicagocwright
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 12:14PM
No, no, no. One of the comments from the article had the best idea.

A zip line from North Dome!
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DavidK42
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 12:29PM
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chicagocwright
No, no, no. One of the comments from the article had the best idea.

A zip line from North Dome!

That may be the only way I ever get my wife up there! spinning smiley sticking its tongue out
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 01:44PM
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chicagocwright
No, no, no. One of the comments from the article had the best idea.
A zip line from North Dome!
It would have to go from to Half Dome (8842ft) to North Dome (7540 ft) or, better yet, to Glacier Point (7214ft). That would give you a drop of 1628ft.

I'd go!
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chicagocwright
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 01:58PM
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Dave
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chicagocwright
No, no, no. One of the comments from the article had the best idea.
A zip line from North Dome!
It would have to go from to Half Dome (8842ft) to North Dome (7540 ft) or, better yet, to Glacier Point (7214ft). That would give you a drop of 1628ft.

I'd go!

I have to admit that I irrationally liked the idea of the zip line. That would be really cool!

As far as the permit system: as others have said the implementation stinks. But I also think it has more than done enough to get rid of the crowds. Every report I hear of Half Dome Summits this year (and last year on permit days) talks about how sparse the crowds are. I would like to see more thought put into the total number allowed because I think the the load can be higher than what is happening now. I'd also like them to generally take away the permit requirement in "off-hours" which would allow backpackers or more experienced hikers access to the Dome when crowds wouldn't be an issue. The potential downside is a bunch of unexperienced people attempting a night hike but I really do not think that would happen.
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sactown23
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 02:01PM
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chicagocwright
Quote
Dave
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chicagocwright
No, no, no. One of the comments from the article had the best idea.
A zip line from North Dome!
It would have to go from to Half Dome (8842ft) to North Dome (7540 ft) or, better yet, to Glacier Point (7214ft). That would give you a drop of 1628ft.

I'd go!

I have to admit that I irrationally liked the idea of the zip line. That would be really cool!

As far as the permit system: as others have said the implementation stinks. But I also think it has more than done enough to get rid of the crowds. Every report I hear of Half Dome Summits this year (and last year on permit days) talks about how sparse the crowds are. I would like to see more thought put into the total number allowed because I think the the load can be higher than what is happening now. I'd also like them to generally take away the permit requirement in "off-hours" which would allow backpackers or more experienced hikers access to the Dome when crowds wouldn't be an issue. The potential downside is a bunch of unexperienced people attempting a night hike but I really do not think that would happen.

You have to understand that scalpers are holding a lot of the permits as well. They don't care if they take a $1.50 loss on a load of permits, if they are making $50 per permit.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 02:05PM
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chicagocwright
The potential downside is a bunch of unexperienced people attempting a night hike but I really do not think that would happen.

Don't count on it no happening. I was amazed at how unprepared some people were (My wife and I rescued a group of day hikers. One was on the verge of heat stroke). We were complete novices and we were way more prepared that far to many. I think the crowds would shift to whatever time they could. It happened with the weekend only permits. It bet it would happen again.
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chicagocwright
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 02:11PM
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Hitech
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chicagocwright
The potential downside is a bunch of unexperienced people attempting a night hike but I really do not think that would happen.

Don't count on it no happening. I was amazed at how unprepared some people were (My wife and I rescued a group of day hikers. One was on the verge of heat stroke). We were complete novices and we were way more prepared that far to many. I think the crowds would shift to whatever time they could. It happened with the weekend only permits. It bet it would happen again.

Well I am counting on Darwin Awards for someone with no clue trying a midnight hike from Happy Isles to Half Dome.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 03:37PM
I think I would make it more than half reserveable, but generally speaking that sounds like a very sound approach. Kind of like the wilderness permits. Great idea. smileys with beer
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 12:45PM
Haha.. I love the bit on their website about closing Half Dome to casual visitors. 17 miles, 4800 feet for casual visitors? I don't like the third cable idea at all. I think they should tear down that Ahwahnee and rebuild it on the summit, complete with helipad. Also, Yosemite Falls could use a log flume.
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Ulysses61
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 12:55PM
Actually, the Reagan adminstration briefly flirted with the idea of erecting a type of funicular to the bottom of the Grand Canyon, an idea with I regard as sacreligious in the extreme.

About Half Dome: I've hiked it probably 25 times in my life and I've never understood the obsession mostly unprepared people have to do it. There are better views from other summits (North Dome and Clouds Rest) and many more scenic hikes: Youngs Lake or Four Mile Trail.

Every time I am on the JMT or on the Half Dome Trail I see hundreds of people who have obviously never done a days worth of hiking in their lives. They generally carry a gallon jug of water in their hands. They have no backpack, no sunscreen, no hat, and proper footwear is haphazard, at best. It's always puzzled me. I am not knocking anyone who wants to get to the top of Half Dome, or any other hike. But sadly, it's generally the non-hikers who litter, trailcut (especially the section after you leave Little Yosemite Valley and start the portion leading to the JMT fork), and have no idea of hiking etiquette.

They will walk 5 abreast, not yield to those going uphill, scream or talk loudly...

For these reasons, I support the quota system. At the very least it weeds out some of the more egregiously unprepared people on the trail.
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h_lankford
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 01:45PM
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Ulysses61
For these reasons, I support the quota system. At the very least it weeds out some of the more egregiously unprepared people on the trail.

I wholeheartedly agree with your description of people on the trail , but how does the quota weed them out?

They have the same chance don't they? I doubt the Park Service would get into screening, then they would be stuck with liability. The quota system seems like an equal opportunity thing, but I am not necessarily defending it. I am glad I got in my ascents of Half Dome from Tenaya, from Glacier Point, and from Happy Isles without the insane numbers of people. Hard to believe it got that bad, but it did.
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riverkat
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 12, 2011 08:13AM
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Ulysses61

Every time I am on the JMT or on the Half Dome Trail I see hundreds of people who have obviously never done a days worth of hiking in their lives. They generally carry a gallon jug of water in their hands. They have no backpack, no sunscreen, no hat, and proper footwear is haphazard, at best. It's always puzzled me. I am not knocking anyone who wants to get to the top of Half Dome, or any other hike. But sadly, it's generally the non-hikers who litter, trailcut (especially the section after you leave Little Yosemite Valley and start the portion leading to the JMT fork), and have no idea of hiking etiquette.

They will walk 5 abreast, not yield to those going uphill, scream or talk loudly...

More often than not, we see them without water too. I hike/backpack with a peace corp veteran who watched a man die of dehydration out in the bush in west Africa. Yea water is heavy but we always carry enough because stuff happens. Can't imagine how hiking can be pleasant without water and proper footwear. It's gotta hurt but maybe its enough discomfort that they won't come back. Saw a lot of that on Whitney last year too....we came up from the west via Guitar Lake. Spoke to a SAR guy later down at outpost camp who told us most of his rescues involved people who wound up in need because of their own stupidty (lack of water, lack of equipment and lack of awareness of their own limitations experience). I think if you create a SAR incident and its because you are unprepared for obvious conditions (like you did not want to carry water or decided to climb Whitney in your flip flops), you should bear the cost of the rescue. People who want to do stupid things in their living room well that's one thing...but people who want to go out and damage the mountains, place the lives of rescue personnel at risk and cost taxpayers money...have to admit I have little patience for that.
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Ulysses61
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 02:12PM
The permit system weeds out people tremendously. So many of the unprepared people I have seen on the Half Dome trail were European or Asian tourists who had absolutely no idea what they were getting themselves into. But there were plenty of Americans too who were woefully unprepared as well. I have always gathered many or most just decide on a whim to hike Half Dome and set out clueless. Without a permit, these people are not on the trail.

Sure, unprepared and out of shape people will still apply and get issued a permit. But at the very least, they prepared somewhat by just getting the permit in the first place. That shows some modicum of planning, even if they remain physically unprepared. The permit system weeds out many people who are simply egregiously out of shape or hiking it on a momentary whim.

I used to hike Whitney back in the day before the permits and I couldn't believe some of the stuff I saw: people in sandals, people with suitcases (no joke), people drinking from Mirror Lake with no filtering system, etc. The permit system weeded a lot of those types of people out, though there are still some who remain with the permit system for sure.

When I have expressed these thoughts in the past, I have been accused of being elitist or trying to prevent people from having a Wilderness experience. That's not my intent. But hiking Half Dome is a decent day hike even for experienced, highly fit hikers. I can't imagine the suffering those who are very overweight and unprepared must face. And the fact they litter, are boisterous and trail cut makes me justifiably livid. Yosemite is a sacred place that belongs to us all. When the non-hikers litter the trail and behave in ways that damage the trail, we all have the right to be angry about it.
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chicagocwright
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 02:16PM
If my young kids catch people littering I literally have to hold them back from open and angry confrontations. But every once in a while it is fun watching them flash their Junior Ranger badges and telling someone they dropped something. They also also usually get a empty bag's worth of litter out as part of their Junior Ranger duties.
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AlmostThere
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 02:59PM
Get a petition to tear out the cables and I'll sign it!
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hotrod4x5
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 08:50PM
I agree with the idea to make half first come first served. Would eliminate a lot of the scalping because if people don't get a reservation, they will just get in line the day before rather than try to buy one from a scalper.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 12, 2011 08:58AM
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AlmostThere
Get a petition to tear out the cables and I'll sign it!

Start a website. I'll sign it in a second.

If need be:
"Inform" the public that their heritage is being taken away from them.
Lie to them. Dupe them into signing your petition.
(I'm almost ill after looking at their facebook page)


Chick-on is looking at you!
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SierraGold
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 04:03PM
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chick-on
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AlmostThere
Get a petition to tear out the cables and I'll sign it!

Start a website. I'll sign it in a second.

If need be:
"Inform" the public that their heritage is being taken away from them.
Lie to them. Dupe them into signing your petition.
(I'm almost ill after looking at their facebook page)

I haven't seen their FB page yet, but don't you think their website is a bit exaggerated?

RE: the permit -- I read an article that said a Ranger checks for permits at the bottom of the cables, and if you don't have one you don't go any farther. I interpret that as being able to hike the trail without going to the top.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 04:33PM
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SierraGold

RE: the permit -- I read an article that said a Ranger checks for permits at the bottom of the cables, and if you don't have one you don't go any farther. I interpret that as being able to hike the trail without going to the top.

Do the Rangers exert control beyond the permit process-- in other words, do they close down the cables if there is lightning or rain?
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DavidK42
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 04:35PM
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Frank Furter
Do the Rangers exert control beyond the permit process-- in other words, do they close down the cables if there is lightning or rain?

Are you kidding? They're smart enough to get the heck out of there if there's lightning or rain! drinking smiley
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 04:46PM
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DavidK42
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Frank Furter
Do the Rangers exert control beyond the permit process-- in other words, do they close down the cables if there is lightning or rain?
They're smart enough to get the heck out of there if there's lightning or rain!

It is not a question about Ranger intelligence. It strikes me as a significant change if the Rangers close the cables-- it implies that the NPS has assumed some additional responsibility for hiker safety than has been present in the past. One can imagine the lawsuits as a consequence.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 07:32PM
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Frank Furter
It is not a question about Ranger intelligence. It strikes me as a significant change if the Rangers close the cables-- it implies that the NPS has assumed some additional responsibility for hiker safety than has been present in the past. One can imagine the lawsuits as a consequence.
They would sue the NPS anyway. Which is better; to be sued by the family of those that died, or by some knucklehead that was stopped from going up in a lightening storm?
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 08:35PM
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Dave
Quote
Frank Furter
It is not a question about Ranger intelligence. It strikes me as a significant change if the Rangers close the cables-- it implies that the NPS has assumed some additional responsibility for hiker safety than has been present in the past. One can imagine the lawsuits as a consequence.
They would sue the NPS anyway. Which is better; to be sued by the family of those that died, or by some knucklehead that was stopped from going up in a lightening storm?
Perhaps, but to return to the original question, do the rangers evaluate the safety and exert daily control over the activity on the cables even for those with permits? If they do, then it seems that they have assumed more oversight (and hence responsibility) for safety on Half Dome. This seems like an entirely different situation from the historical position the NPS has taken with regard to the cables. For example, if they shut down the cables during afternoon thunderstorms because the conditions are deemed unsafe, when they re-open the cables the implication is that the danger has passed. Should anyone be injured when there is ranger oversight, it seems to me that a case could be made that the safety was misrepresented.
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AlmostThere
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 08:42PM
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Frank Furter
Quote
Dave
Quote
Frank Furter
It is not a question about Ranger intelligence. It strikes me as a significant change if the Rangers close the cables-- it implies that the NPS has assumed some additional responsibility for hiker safety than has been present in the past. One can imagine the lawsuits as a consequence.
They would sue the NPS anyway. Which is better; to be sued by the family of those that died, or by some knucklehead that was stopped from going up in a lightening storm?
Perhaps, but to return to the original question, do the rangers evaluate the safety and exert daily control over the activity on the cables even for those with permits? If they do, then it seems that they have assumed more oversight (and hence responsibility) for safety on Half Dome. This seems like an entirely different situation from the historical position the NPS has taken with regard to the cables. For example, if they shut down the cables during afternoon thunderstorms because the conditions are deemed unsafe, when they re-open the cables the implication is that the danger has passed. Should anyone be injured when there is ranger oversight, it seems to me that a case could be made that the safety was misrepresented.

Climbers in Yosemite do not need to get a permit - not to climb, or to spend a night in the "wilderness", or anything. They just go climb.

One would hope that when it's raining, the ranger at the cables would at least say to each person "I STRENUOUSLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU DO NOT GO UP THE CABLES AT THIS TIME BECAUSE YOU COULD DIE A GRUESOME DEATH LIKE THOSE PEOPLE IN SHATTERED AIR" - but I wouldn't count on it.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 08:53PM
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AlmostThere
Quote
Frank Furter
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Dave
Quote
Frank Furter
It is not a question about Ranger intelligence. It strikes me as a significant change if the Rangers close the cables-- it implies that the NPS has assumed some additional responsibility for hiker safety than has been present in the past. One can imagine the lawsuits as a consequence.
They would sue the NPS anyway. Which is better; to be sued by the family of those that died, or by some knucklehead that was stopped from going up in a lightening storm?
Perhaps, but to return to the original question, do the rangers evaluate the safety and exert daily control over the activity on the cables even for those with permits? If they do, then it seems that they have assumed more oversight (and hence responsibility) for safety on Half Dome. This seems like an entirely different situation from the historical position the NPS has taken with regard to the cables. For example, if they shut down the cables during afternoon thunderstorms because the conditions are deemed unsafe, when they re-open the cables the implication is that the danger has passed. Should anyone be injured when there is ranger oversight, it seems to me that a case could be made that the safety was misrepresented.

Climbers in Yosemite do not need to get a permit - not to climb, or to spend a night in the "wilderness", or anything. They just go climb.

One would hope that when it's raining, the ranger at the cables would at least say to each person "I STRENUOUSLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU DO NOT GO UP THE CABLES AT THIS TIME BECAUSE YOU COULD DIE A GRUESOME DEATH LIKE THOSE PEOPLE IN SHATTERED AIR" - but I wouldn't count on it.

Speculation, comparison to irrelevant situations and re-statement of the obvious is not very informative. Surely there must be someone here who has some actual factual information on this particular question!
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AlmostThere
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 14, 2011 04:02PM
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Frank Furter


Speculation, comparison to irrelevant situations and re-statement of the obvious is not very informative. Surely there must be someone here who has some actual factual information on this particular question!

Next time I'm up there, I'll be sure to ask the ranger for some factual information.

Not sure that will help since I have gotten plenty of erroneous information from rangers.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 08:48PM
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Frank Furter
do the rangers evaluate the safety and exert daily control over the activity on the cables even for those with permits?

No.
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hotrod4x5
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 04:42PM
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Frank Furter
Quote
SierraGold

RE: the permit -- I read an article that said a Ranger checks for permits at the bottom of the cables, and if you don't have one you don't go any farther. I interpret that as being able to hike the trail without going to the top.

Do the Rangers exert control beyond the permit process-- in other words, do they close down the cables if there is lightning or rain?
Have you not read that tragic story of the people trapped on the cables in a storm? I am sure someone can provide the link, the read is chilling.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 08:46PM
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SierraGold
RE: the permit -- I read an article that said a Ranger checks for permits at the bottom of the cables, and if you don't have one you don't go any farther. I interpret that as being able to hike the trail without going to the top.


Of course... but do you really want to be on the same trail as all the idiots wearing flip flops?
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SierraGold
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 14, 2011 07:49PM
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szalkowski
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SierraGold
RE: the permit -- I read an article that said a Ranger checks for permits at the bottom of the cables, and if you don't have one you don't go any farther. I interpret that as being able to hike the trail without going to the top.


Of course... but do you really want to be on the same trail as all the idiots wearing flip flops?

No. But they're going to do it anyway, so that's a moot point.
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manimal
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 14, 2011 12:25PM
There is a competing website out. www.savehalfdome.org (Note the .org and not the .com)

No petition there, but they have some good ideas wink
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mtn man
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 04:02PM
Everyone, I've posted this before. Why do people from all over the world feel they have to do Half Dome rather than the other mostly more rewarding hikes?? IT"S THE T-SHIRTS!!!!!!!!! Do you see T-shirts in the stores saying I rafted the Merced? I hiked to The Top of Vernal? Nevada Falls? Waterwheel? Glacier Point Four Mile Trail? Panorama Trail? NO!! Everyone wants to do the top of Half Dome so they can legitmately buy the only T-shirt in the gift stores regarding hiking accomplishments, that says "I made it to the top" and then shows a picture of Half Dome! I say we forbid that shirt from the the gift shops and that should cure the problem What do you all think? Rolling on floor laugh
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chicagocwright
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 04:34PM
Sheepishly. My family has "Made it to the Top" Yosemite Falls t-shirts.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 04:35PM
"Everyone" wants to hike to the top of Half Dome because it is the most recognized place in Yosemite. I wanted to for that same reason. eye popping smiley

Oh yeah, my wife has the tee-shirt. But she really did earn it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2011 04:36PM by Hitech.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 06:44PM
I hiked Half Dome because:
It was a something to accomplish
The trailhead is in the valley by the campground I was staying in
It was a huge mental and physical challenge for me and I like to push myself
It was the day hike from the valley that I had not yet accomplished

As for the t-shirt, I didn't think or even realize that there was one. I was one in the gift shop the winter after I finished the hike and saw it. So I purchased it and proudly wear it!
When I hiked Half Dome the first time, it was crowded, but not as bad as the pictures I see. We had a plan, left at 4:30, made it to the top and down before the major crowds came. I still felt crowded and pressured into going faster by people behind me/outside of the cables. Lots of people going around me, even though I was just following the people in front of me (many excuse me and can I pass requests from people in and out of the cables). It was a bit stressful, and I can't imagine trying the ascent with the hoards of people that some of the pictures depict.

That being said, I am hiking it again in a few weeks. I will be able to compare hiking with permits versus without. I know I am considered lucky by many (being able to obtain permits) but my trip would still be awesome without the permits. I would still camp and hike and have a great time regardless. However, with all of the attention the permits controversy has drawn, I am not sure I would want to attempt the hike again if the permit requirement was revoked (too many people). Nor am I in favor of adding cables. If they took the existing cables away, it would be sad, but Yosemite is supposed to be all about keeping things in a natural state (so they say) and I would completely understand.

I can add to experiencing unprepared hikers on the Half Dome trail. I've seen flip flops, had people ask where the nearest water source is while holding a small empty bottle of water, asking where they can get food, and asking for the nearest bathroom. It is not a hike for the unprepared, but I prepare and welcome the challenge it offers, not the t-shirt.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 08:42PM
Quote
robinjayp
. . . snip . . .
Yosemite is supposed to be all about keeping things in a natural state (so they say)
. . . snip . . .

ahhh no I'd have to strongly disagree with that!

The National Park Service Organic Act of 1916 charges the NPS with a dual mandate to promote and regulate the use of the national parks "by such means and measures as conform to the fundamental purpose to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment for the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations."

It's dual and contradictory, but that's why NPS exists, to make the park available to the public, and to conserve it so that it continues to be available to the public in the future.

The NPS has a crazy complicated set of layered mandates. I couldn't find a good document online discussing Yosemite, but here is one for Grand Canyon - Grand Canyon Legal Mandates starts to give you and idea of Grand Canyon Mandates

Yosemite Planner's Reading Room has a links for some of the policies, acts and directives that planning at YNP has to adhere to.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2011 08:53PM by qumqats.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 09:24PM
I know this is a hot topic. I was reffering to the general attitudes about keeping areas closed for public use in order to let them naturally restore themselves (meadows, lost campgrounds). I am not an expert, merely pointing my own experiences and observations smiling smiley

Last year I spoke to some of the rangers in the valley about the massive amounts of rock piles "growing" by Mirror Lake. Some thought they were interesting and amusing. Others felt that they detracted for the "natural state" Yosemite is supposed to maintain. I was told this was an ongoing issues about preservation. I don't know if they are still up or not though.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 12, 2011 09:36AM
Quote
robinjayp
I know this is a hot topic. I was reffering to the general attitudes about keeping areas closed for public use in order to let them naturally restore themselves (meadows, lost campgrounds). I am not an expert, merely pointing my own experiences and observations smiling smiley

Last year I spoke to some of the rangers in the valley about the massive amounts of rock piles "growing" by Mirror Lake. Some thought they were interesting and amusing. Others felt that they detracted for the "natural state" Yosemite is supposed to maintain. I was told this was an ongoing issues about preservation. I don't know if they are still up or not though.
Probably not. I and many others that work in the park knock down those things whenever we see them.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 09:39PM
Quote
qumqats
Quote
robinjayp
. . . snip . . .
Yosemite is supposed to be all about keeping things in a natural state (so they say)
. . . snip . . .

ahhh no I'd have to strongly disagree with that!

The National Park Service Organic Act of 1916 charges the NPS with a dual mandate to promote and regulate the use of the national parks "by such means and measures as conform to the fundamental purpose to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wild life therein and to provide for the enjoyment for the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations."

It's dual and contradictory, but that's why NPS exists, to make the park available to the public, and to conserve it so that it continues to be available to the public in the future.

It's a dual mandate, but it really isn't contradictory with careful thought and planning by the Park Service. Of course, it doesn't make their job simple by having to adhere to BOTH mandates, but it's still very doable if they put careful thought and effort in everything they do. The Park Service tends to get into hot water when they start favoring one mandate over the other.

It's their job to balance both mandates, fairly, in a smart and intelligent manner.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 08:56PM
Quote
mtn man
Everyone, I've posted this before. Why do people from all over the world feel they have to do Half Dome rather than the other mostly more rewarding hikes?? IT"S THE T-SHIRTS!!!!!!!!! Do you see T-shirts in the stores saying I rafted the Merced? I hiked to The Top of Vernal? Nevada Falls? Waterwheel? Glacier Point Four Mile Trail? Panorama Trail? NO!! Everyone wants to do the top of Half Dome so they can legitmately buy the only T-shirt in the gift stores regarding hiking accomplishments, that says "I made it to the top" and then shows a picture of Half Dome! I say we forbid that shirt from the the gift shops and that should cure the problem What do you all think? Rolling on floor laugh
I wish I could buy another T-shirt that said; "I (almost) MADE IT TO THE TOP."
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[email protected]
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 09:39PM
I LOVE IT....I WANT ONE.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 09:47PM
I actually do have a t-shirt that I bought a number of years ago at the Yosemite Lodge Gift Shop that states on the back "MADE IT TO THE TOP" in large letters but in tiny letters above that states "I didn't".

(And on the front of the t-shirt there's a small DNC Yosemite Half Dome logo with the inscription "Laid back in Yosemite".) smiling smiley
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 12, 2011 11:56AM
Quote
Dave
I wish I could buy another T-shirt that said; "I (almost) MADE IT TO THE TOP."

They don't still have those?
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 12, 2011 12:01PM
Quote
eeek
Quote
Dave
I wish I could buy another T-shirt that said; "I (almost) MADE IT TO THE TOP."
They don't still have those?
No, I've been looking. I also want that T-shirt that has some boot prints meeting up with some bear tracks and only the bear tracks continuing.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 10:36AM
Quote
Dave
Quote
mtn man
Everyone, I've posted this before. Why do people from all over the world feel they have to do Half Dome rather than the other mostly more rewarding hikes?? IT"S THE T-SHIRTS!!!!!!!!! Do you see T-shirts in the stores saying I rafted the Merced? I hiked to The Top of Vernal? Nevada Falls? Waterwheel? Glacier Point Four Mile Trail? Panorama Trail? NO!! Everyone wants to do the top of Half Dome so they can legitmately buy the only T-shirt in the gift stores regarding hiking accomplishments, that says "I made it to the top" and then shows a picture of Half Dome! I say we forbid that shirt from the the gift shops and that should cure the problem What do you all think? Rolling on floor laugh
I wish I could buy another T-shirt that said; "I (almost) MADE IT TO THE TOP."

I would like one that says, "Half Dome--Never Have, Never Will"
"Discover the Real Yosemite"
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 10:46AM
Quote
tomdisco
I would like one that says, "Half Dome--Never Have, Never Will"
"Discover the Real Yosemite"

You may want to order your "I Survived Loch Tablae" T-Shirt now.


Chick-on is looking at you!
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 10:55AM
Quote
chick-on
Quote
tomdisco
I would like one that says, "Half Dome--Never Have, Never Will"
"Discover the Real Yosemite"

You may want to order your "I Survived Loch Tablae" T-Shirt now.

What is the chikin shed gift shop charging for these gems of the wilderness? Or are they free after providing on-site proof?
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 04:03PM
Quote
tomdisco
Or are they free after providing on-site proof?

They're free with proof. Please provide a picture a little more convincing than this clown though:



Undecided whether I will go that-a-way this year or not. Thinking about doing my "A-Boat-In Benson" Trip via Table/Saddle Horse and up Puite..
We'll see. Too many things to choose from...


Chick-on is looking at you!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2011 04:05PM by chick-on.
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mtn man
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 14, 2011 09:09AM
Quote
tomdisco
Quote
Dave


I would like one that says, "Half Dome--Never Have, Never Will"
"Discover the Real Yosemite"

I like that idea. I'd buy that one!
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[email protected]
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 11, 2011 09:33PM
NO MORE CABLES! MIGHT AS WELL ADD BILLBOARDS AND NIGHT LIGHTING SO IT CAN BE SUMMITED 24/7! CRAZY...WHAT WILL JOHN MUIR OR STEVEN MATHERS DO?
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basilbop
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 12, 2011 02:10PM
I believe John Muir was among the first to use Anderson's cable route up Half Dome, so it is hard to tell what he would say... Mather, on the other hand, was generally in favor of maximizing visitation to parks, even at the expense of what we might now consider over-development or over-use, so he would probably would have been all in favor of accommodating more visitors--and hiring people to clean up after them if needed. (Marshall's Wildeness Society was in many ways a reaction to the perceived over-development by the Mather park service, but the parks-as-wilderness management ethic is what has prevailed, at least in the western parks.)

My overly-simple idea: put in longer boards that extend past the outside of the cables 2' or so, so that the outsides of the cables can be used more safely. Then, convert one cable to up-only, and the other to down-only. The middle could be used to go up until whatever time more people are generally going down than up, then it would be down only. People could still hold on with both hands--they would just be on the same cable.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 12, 2011 02:18PM
Quote
basilbop
Mather, on the other hand, was generally in favor of maximizing visitation to parks, even at the expense of what we might now consider over-development or over-use, so he would probably would have been all in favor of accommodating more visitors

Yes, but in Mather's time visitation was very low. He might see things differently if he was alive today.
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GVlog
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 12, 2011 10:56AM
T-shirt suggestions:

I DROVE UP TO GLACIER POINT (AND THE VIEW WAS A LOT BETTER)

I OVERPAID A SCALPER FOR A HALF-DOME PERMIT AND DIDN'T EVEN MAKE IT HALFWAY TO THE BASE

BUY MY HALF-DOME PERMIT

MAKE IT FAIR FOR EVERYONE (TAKE OUT ALL THE HALF-DOME CABLES)
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sactown23
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 12, 2011 11:08AM
Quote
GVlog


I OVERPAID A SCALPER FOR A HALF-DOME PERMIT AND DIDN'T EVEN MAKE IT HALFWAY TO THE BASE

thanks for making me spill my coffee
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ERICG
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 12, 2011 12:14PM
Another T-shirt suggestion:

"Which one is Half-Dome?"
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 12, 2011 06:11PM
How about:

I HIKED HALF DOME WITH ONE BOTTLE OF WATER
(and passed out at Nevada)

4 HALF DOME PERMITS
(turned around at the footbridge)
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SierraGold
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 05:12PM
Quote
GVlog
T-shirt suggestions:

I DROVE UP TO GLACIER POINT (AND THE VIEW WAS A LOT BETTER)

I OVERPAID A SCALPER FOR A HALF-DOME PERMIT AND DIDN'T EVEN MAKE IT HALFWAY TO THE BASE

BUY MY HALF-DOME PERMIT

MAKE IT FAIR FOR EVERYONE (TAKE OUT ALL THE HALF-DOME CABLES)

I like the second one the best.
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Red Lipstick
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 12, 2011 02:27PM
OKay, I'm neither for or against permits, but I don't see how the idea of abolishing permits relates (in any way shape or form) toward the commercialization (like retail outlets, more cables etc., as stated) of the park. Without the permits, it leads to more people and possibly more death-related accidents. On the the flip-side, it's a vast wilderness (at least it was), so be it.

Some people here seem to spilt hairs, as far as regualting goes. They don't want hazzard signs on their trails, but want the amount of people regulated... People are never happy (at least not here, it seems).

He made a simple statement...why troll it?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2011 02:29PM by Red Lipstick.
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AlmostThere
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 12, 2011 07:00PM
Quote
Red Lipstick


He made a simple statement...why troll it?

A strong opinion makes someone a troll?

Really?

I have an opinion because I have some experiences with the hike that formed it. Strong lingering impressions formed by stressful experiences lead me to my opinion.

If you don't like my opinion, sorry, but it's going to remain as it is, because the dome continues to draw in the masses of inexperienced non-hikers who have death wishes.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 12, 2011 07:10PM
Quote
AlmostThere
[... because the dome continues to draw in the masses of inexperienced non-hikers who have death wishes.


... and they're not bright enough to know it.
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AlmostThere
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 03:22PM
Quote
szalkowski
Quote
AlmostThere
[... because the dome continues to draw in the masses of inexperienced non-hikers who have death wishes.


... and they're not bright enough to know it.

T shirt: I HIKED HALF DOME (thanks to the people who filtered water for me at the Merced, gave me granola at the subdome, loaned me sunscreen on top, let me hold their hand back down the cables coz I froze for an hour and they couldn't get around me, and also the wonderful SAR team who brought me that pretty horsey to ride when I couldn't walk on the blisters on the blisters caused by my flipflops any more!)
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Red Lipstick
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 04:19PM
Well, you know what they about opinions...

Besides, opinions and, obviously, assumptions are two different things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2011 04:21PM by Red Lipstick.
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AlmostThere
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 04:22PM
Quote
Red Lipstick
Well, you know what they about opinions...

Besides, opinions and, obviously, assumptions are two different things.

I have opinions. I hike the trail often enough to not make assumptions.

How many times have you filtered water for dehydrated hikers? I carry moleskin for other people.
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Red Lipstick
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 04:27PM
okay... I walked barefoot, both ways, in the snow?
What did I win?
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AlmostThere
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 04:29PM
Quote
Red Lipstick
okay... I walked barefoot, both ways, in the snow?
What did I win?

The same prize all the half dome flipflop wearing hikers get.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 04:39PM
Quote
AlmostThere
Quote
Red Lipstick
okay... I walked barefoot, both ways, in the snow?
What did I win?

The same prize all the half dome flipflop wearing hikers get.

Unusable feet?
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AlmostThere
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 08:39PM
Quote
eeek
Quote
AlmostThere
Quote
Red Lipstick
okay... I walked barefoot, both ways, in the snow?
What did I win?

The same prize all the half dome flipflop wearing hikers get.

Unusable feet?

And the wisdom that comes through suffering.
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avatar Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 12, 2011 03:54PM
Keep the permits! It was conceived with the right intentions. To minimize impact, increase safety, and to enhance the outdoor experience.

The process is what needs to be changed! That the park service has allowed a secondary market for these permits is shameful.

I'm lucky that I have been there numerous times. I've scratched that itch...
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ryanmj
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 11:26AM
I like the permits, I was on top a few days ago and there were 2 other people with me. Much nicer than it is when its packed
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parklover
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 09:42PM
I have a t-shirt that says, "I made it to the top" with a Half Dome symbol and the word "NOT" in red at the bottom. They sold it right after the movie "Wayne's World" came out so it is very old.

In Zion you can get a t-shirt that says that you made it to Angels Landing. My son and husband had to turn around near the top so they got one that on the back has a drawing of the trail from Walters Wiggles to Angels Landing that says " I made it to the top......NOT! I tried to make it......SERIOUSLY!

I have bad knees now and can't hike much so a helicopter is the only way I would get to the top. I am not sure if I would try a zip line.

Many years ago we saw a girl wearing a mini skirt and 3 inch high heels trying to go up the Mist Trail. The 20 year old male members of our group got a great kick out of it because she was also sans panties. We passed her and I have always wondered if she made it to the top of Vernal.
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Ohnivy-Drak
Re: Petition to end Half Dome permits begins online
July 13, 2011 11:14PM
I took a quick day trip this past Monday. Didn't notice too many people on top of Half Dome. And surprisingly, nobody was climbing any of the routes on El Cap. Used binoculars from multiple vantage points.

Was there some type of silent protest going on? I also noticed one YOSAR helicopter in the afternoon, flying over the El Cap side of the valley. Hopefully there were no serious incidents.
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