Re: needed while hiking solo - any self defense?

just curious. I know no guns allowed in natl parks but relative always carried gun when backpacking in Glacier (don't think it could stop a grizzly). did my first solo hike recently and worried wife a bit. do you guys carry anything for self defense like a gun. girl I came across was stalked by a mountain lion and was scared but she was small. gun, knife, or not needed?

Not needed. To my knowledge there haven't been any mountain lion or bear attacks on people in Yosemite.

Actually, you can bring a handgun into the NP wilderness, just not into any federal building such as permit offices. There is absolutely nothing in Yosemite that would warrant carrying a handgun except for the mosquitoes!

Dadburn skeeters!

If your concern is bears and lions then a) you have pretty much nothing to fear, attacks are extremely rare, and b) a handgun isn't going to help you much in the unlikely event of a too-close encounter.

I have never brought a gun along on any hike, I don't even own a gun. I've never had the need for one either. Leave the extra weight at home.

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Dave
I have never brought a gun along on any hike, I don't even own a gun. I've never had the need for one either. Leave the extra weight at home.

What he said!

I think the bigger risk is getting injured or having a serious health issue, and a SPOT communicator or similar would be way more likely to be used.

A single woman hiker once told me about seeing a couple of guys just before she set up her tent one night. Later that night she heard footsteps outside of her tent. She asked who was there. Still later she heard more footsteps. No answer to her calls. After a third time she yelled that she had a gun; you guys better go away. In the morning she found deer prints all around her tent.
Of course she didn't have a gun. Wouldn't dream of carrying a gun. It's hard to take out a fantasy with a gun.
I

I agree with what others have said. There is more chance of tripping or falling and getting hurt. A handgun is not going to help if one gets attacked by a bear or mountain lion plus, the chances of that happening is pretty slim. Unless you are carrying something powerful and you are accurate enough that you can drop them dead with one shot, you are only going to pissed them off. A knife for self defense is going to be worthless on animals.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2013 12:07PM by parklover.

Tedbay,
Sorry you asked? No sympathy here either.

The best defense in the wilderness is not doing stupid things like taking shortcuts just because you are tired.

I am a middle aged woman who normally hikes solo- no companions= less whining. When I was younger I worried, but than I realized I am safer on the trail than on the freeway.
By the time you are five miles down the trail most of the dangerous people are gone. As for animals- the last fatal wild bear attack in California was in the 1870's in Santa Cruz. That was a grizzly. The
only grizzlies left in California are on the flag.

Know your limits, let people know where you are going and when you'll be out, then enjoy the beauty and serenity of the mountains.

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lschaaf

The only grizzlies left in California are on the flag.

And at the San Francisco Zoo.

.

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plawrence

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lschaaf

The only grizzlies left in California are on the flag.

And at the San Francisco Zoo.

.

Did you mean the SF Academy of Sciences?
http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/CA-grizzly-bear-Monarch-a-symbol-of-suffering-2372855.php

I wasn't referring to the dead stuffed grizzly (Monarch) at the SF Academy of Sciences, but a pair of living, breathing, female grizzlies (Kachina and Kiona) located at the San Francisco Zoo's Hearst Grizzly Gulch:

http://www.sfzoo.org/grizzlygulch

.

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lschaaf
The best defense in the wilderness is not doing stupid things like taking shortcuts just because you are tired.

I am a middle aged woman who normally hikes solo- no companions= less whining. When I was younger I worried, but than I realized I am safer on the trail than on the freeway.
By the time you are five miles down the trail most of the dangerous people are gone. As for animals- the last fatal wild bear attack in California was in the 1870's in Santa Cruz. That was a grizzly. The
only grizzlies left in California are on the flag.

Know your limits, let people know where you are going and when you'll be out, then enjoy the beauty and serenity of the mountains.

There are several captive grizzlies in California, and the pair at the San Francisco Zoo was mentioned. There was a guy who had one he trained and had used for various things such as movie shoots, but it turned on the trainer one day and was put down afterwards.

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Tedbay
just curious. I know no guns allowed in natl parks but relative always carried gun when backpacking in Glacier (don't think it could stop a grizzly). did my first solo hike recently and worried wife a bit. do you guys carry anything for self defense like a gun. girl I came across was stalked by a mountain lion and was scared but she was small. gun, knife, or not needed?

If your question was truly intended for just Yosemite then there can't be any better answers then what has already been posted. But you mention Glacier specifically, and in general "natl parks" which can make a big difference in your plans. There is an old debate in Alaska regarding regarding hiker safety and gun proponents and bear spray proponents. The simplest answer is: if you are not already a skilled marksman used to shooting a big handgun (i.e. 44 revolver) then bear spray is the answer. And even better than a handgun would be a shotgun. But who wants to hike with that? And although handguns are allowed in National Parks, I'm not sure if shotguns are or not.

The only predator (beside your fellow human being) that one should worry about about being fatally attacked by in Yosemite, non-provoked, is the mountain lion. The Yosemite deers and black bears will attack humans only when foolishly provoked by humans. Besides non-lethal insect pests (mosquitos, etc.), only the mountain lion will stalk and attack — unprovoked — a human being.

Fortunately, mountain lion attacks are still fairly rare in California though they have occurred with some regularity over the past 30 years. Still, mountain lions are considered enough of a danger in Yosemite that the National Park Service felt compelled to post warnings about a mountain lion sighting around the vicinity of the Pohono Trail and the precautions hikers should take because of a possible mountain lion encounter in that area.

That said, while carrying a firearm inside Yosemite National Park is legal, the discharging of one by ordinary park visitors is still illegal. So to bring along a firearm on a hike for self-protection isn't advisable (nor really needed). There are ways one can defend themselves against a mountain lion attack without having to resort to using a firearm.

Here's a list of the 14 confirmed mountain lion attacks that have occurred in California since 1986 for anyone that's interested:

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/lion/attacks.html



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2013 03:38PM by plawrence.

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plawrence
The only predator (beside your fellow human being) that one should worry about about being fatally attacked by in Yosemite, non-provoked, is the mountain lion.

What about Bigfoot?

They're more gentle and timid than even Yosemite black bears.

Come on now, when was the last time anyone's food was raided by Bigfoot in Yosemite?

.

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plawrence
They're more gentle and timid than even Yosemite black bears.

Come on now, when was the last time anyone's food was raided by Bigfoot in Yosemite?

.

Well I did not want to spook people too much. But here is conclusive proof that Bigfoot not only passed by Matterhorn Canyon (see Spiller Canyon trip picts) but that he/she wears the same size shoes as Shaq.



I felt strangely protected with Chick-On, Basilbopbird, and ACE crab nearby at all times....

That must have been one big Big Foot hopping on one foot to leave a print in solid granite.

I'm not sure why I'd caution someone to be concerned about being attacked in Yosemite by a cougar, when so such attack has EVER happened?

Agencies post signs for many reasons. One of the most common is so that no one can complain that they did not post a sign......not because there was ever a problem.

i worry more about people than i do animals. personally, i carry a stun gun with me quite often. either that, or pepper spray (i no longer want any physical confrontations lol). zap 'em or spray 'em.

I'm shocked

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forrestranger

personally, i carry a stun gun with me quite often. either that, or pepper spray (i no longer want any physical confrontations lol). zap 'em or spray 'em.

Just need to note that it's illegal to have pepper spay in one's possession while visiting Yosemite. (And as I already noted in a previous post, while it's legal to travel with a firearm inside Yosemite, it's illegal to discharge it for ANY reason.)


Here's the pertinent information from the official Yosemite website:

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Weapons/Firearms

Firearms
As of February 22, 2010, a new federal law allows people who can legally possess firearms under applicable federal, state, and local laws, to legally possess firearms in this park.

It is the responsibility of visitors to understand and comply with all applicable state, local, and federal firearms laws before entering this park. As a starting point, visit the California Attorney General's website.

Federal law also prohibits firearms in certain facilities in this park; those places are marked with signs at all public entrances.

Discharging a firearm for any reason is illegal.

Other Weapons
The possession, use, or discharge of pepper spray (including bear spray), pellet guns, and BB guns in Yosemite National Park is prohibited.


http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/weapons.htm

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forrestranger
i worry more about people than i do animals. personally, i carry a stun gun with me quite often. either that, or pepper spray (i no longer want any physical confrontations lol). zap 'em or spray 'em.

I was skating on the nature trail when 2 Pit Bulls set up for an attack. It turned out that the WD-40 that I was carrying for the skates made an excellent repellent for the dogs, too!

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The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

I believe the quotation, "Discharging a firearm for any reason is illegal." addresses discharging said firearm within "certain facilities". Not specifically within the overall boundaries of the national park.

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www.pbase.com/caesar77

That's an incorrect interpretation. What they mean is that discharging a firearm anywhere inside the park's boundary is illegal.

In certain facilities within the park, it's also illegal to possess a firearm. Those facilities are marked with signs stating the prohibition at their public entrances.

But if you don't want to take my word for it, call Yosemite National Park's Public Information Office for clarification. They can be reached at (209) 372-0200 between 9:00 AM and 5:00 PM each day.


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plawrence
That's an incorrect interpretation. What they mean is that discharging a firearm anywhere inside the park's boundary is illegal.

In certain facilities within the park, it's also illegal to possess a firearm. Those facilities are marked with signs stating the prohibition at their public entrances.

But if you don't want to take my word for it, call Yosemite National Park's Public Information Office for clarification. They can be reached at (209) 372-0200 between 9:00 AM and 5:00 PM each day.


.

I believe technically if someone discharged a gun in self defense it would be considered justified and not subject to any "illegal discharge" regulations. However, I suspect that there might be some rather poor excuses for "self defense". No visitor really needs to fire a gun at a black bear in Yosemite.

The other issues in places where bear spray is allowed (i.e. sold at pretty much every gift shop in Yellowstone) that it's legally only allowed to be used against animals and not humans. The state of California regulates non law enforcement pepper spray beyond 2.5 oz cans as an "economic poison" (aka pesticide) and it would be illegal to use it against a human being. However, I can't imagine anyone would be prosecuted for using it where personal defense pepper spray would be OK to use in self defense. I remember overhearing a group of rangers at Grand Teton NP talking about the bear spray they carried. One said he though he might be more likely to use it against a person than an animal.

thank you all. my last name is Hunting believe it or not and many great hunters in my family but I have never owned a gun. Great perspective from all. I have no gun hiking but my wife and others have suggested it. thanks for perspective as I am with you. my grandfather and uncle taught me to always have the proper tools and that was really what I was asking as a new solo backpacker and you answered perfectly. appreciate the views!

I suggest you learn Kung Fu like all the other bears. It it great self defense and will provide you with a life time of health benefits.

And please tell me where you plan to camp so I can be miles away from you.

I follow some of the blogs of hikers doing the PCT, and every once in awhile there are accounts of mountain lion encounters, usually in hot spots between Belden and the Oregon border, not in Yosemite. Mountain lions are on the CA "protected species" list, so I imagine their numbers must be growing yearly.

1) Locals carrying guns in a mountain lion hot spot, probably in a National Forest that allows firearms to be carried and discharged:
http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=200966

2) Girl activated SPOT because a mountain lion outside her tent freaked her out; rescuers arrived the next morning:
http://mexicotocanada2013.wordpress.com/2013/07/18/my-harrowing-night-with-a-mountain-lion/


(Wouldn't want to go hiking or camping in Glacier National Park after watching a PBS documentary last night -- GLACIER PARK'S NIGHT OF THE GRIZZLIES.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2013 09:06PM by KenS.

Trekking poles without the basket might work:


Man who stabbed cougar with spear used 'significant amount of bravery': officer

The Canadian Press
September 9, 2013
VANCOUVER — A British Columbia conservation officer is marvelling at a man's bravery for attacking a cougar with nothing but a spear as the cat was mauling his partner.

"I'm pretty sure that this is the first time in B.C., if not Canada and maybe even North America, where someone has stopped an attack by a cougar with a spear and killed it with a spear," said conservation officer Sgt. Ben York in an interview Monday.

http://www.timescolonist.com/man-who-stabbed-cougar-with-spear-used-significant-amount-of-bravery-officer-1.617314


Cougar that crushed Vancouver Island woman’s skull may have stalked others
By Brian Morton and Kelly Sinoski, Vancouver Sun September 9, 2013 6:45 PM

... The woman was working outside her cabin Sunday afternoon when she was attacked from behind by the cougar, said Troy Haddock, maritime coordinator with the Joint Rescue Co-ordination Centre in Victoria.

The woman’s skull was crushed and half her scalp was missing following the attack, he said. She also suffered several puncture wounds before her common-law partner — who heard her screams and quickly came to her aid — stabbed the cat repeatedly with a spear and chased it off.


Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Cougar+that+crushed+Vancouver+Island+woman+skull+have+stalked+others/8887175/story.html#ixzz2eSr1P4VA
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Cougar+that+crushed+Vancouver+Island+woman+skull+have+stalked/8887175/story.html

Wow, scary stuff.

I'm from England, so all the talk of guns is a bit much for me lol!

I don't worry about animals too much, but people worry me more. When I did my first overnight trips in the UK, I did worry slightly about "hooligans" arriving in the night, but I reason that anybody that far out, isn't likely to be a troublemaker.

Besides, they would be picking on the wrong tent, for sure ;-) That far into the hills, nobody will hear THEM scream lol

If I were a solo female hiker, I think I would be more worried. If I knew any girls who were looking at doing such a thing, I would try my best to make sure they carried a knife, and knew how to use it.

Perhaps I worry too much though. But if it were my own daughter out there (I don't have kids), I think I would insist on a little personal protection in the form of a knife, at least.

For myself, my trusty hiking poles are the best weapons I could ever ask for!

Steve

I have less worries hiking in most of the Sierra (Yosemite and the JMT) than in the coastal forests with heavy undergrowth.

A mountain lion encounter to remember (go to year 2004):
http://www.cougarinfo.org/attacks3.htm

On the morning of 08Jan2004, Mark Reynolds, a mountain bike racer, was killed by a mountain lion, body half-eaten and partially buried. Later in the day, Anne Hjelle, a fitness instructor and former marine, was knocked off her mountain bike by the same mtn lion. A tug-of-war ensued with her head in the grip of its jaw and her friend pulling on her leg. The mtn lion wouldn't let go until another rescuer hit it in the face with a rock.

(For graphic photos of her injuries, click on the "Anne Jhelle -- before" photo.)

=======================================

A woman who fought off a mountain lion attack:
http://discovermagazine.com/2010/the-brain/04-stages-fear-attacked-mountain-lion-edition



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2013 02:10PM by KenS.

Yes, Mountain loin attacks are scary stuff, but think of the odds. Lighting is more of a hazard. That attack was in 2004, nine years ago. How many people have hiked and biked since then with no problems?

Those two incidents occurred in S. CA mountains which are not heavily forested and in an area that has had multiple mountain lion sightings. If you are riding a bike or running, a lion will think you are prey and go after you. With the amount of lion warnings in that area, I personally would not go running or biking unless I was in a group.

There are mountain lions in Yosemite too. One has been spotted multiple times this summer around Dewey Point, near the Pohono Trail. Hence the warnings about mountain lions that the Park Service posted this summer at the trailheads of the Pohono Trail and the McGurk Meadow TH.

Mountain lions are active in Yosemite and potentially very dangerous. People shouldn't discount the possibly of an encounter, though encounters with mountain lions in Yosemite (and elsewhere in California) is still quite rare.

Fortunately in Yosemite, the mountain lion's natural prey, deer and other mammals, is plentiful so there hasn't been any reports of Yosemite mountain lions stalking and attacking humans ... yet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2013 11:06AM by plawrence.

Quote
plawrence


Fortunately in Yosemite, the mountain lion's natural prey, deer and other mammals, is plentiful so there hasn't been any reports of Yosemite mountain lions stalking and attacking humans ... yet.

From Tedbay's recent TR: "Helen from Belgium, 1 of 2 cool hikers I met along the way. When I met her she was stalked night before by a mountain lion outside her tent near Sunrise and was really scared. Two deer just outside her tent that suddenly disappeared and the mountain lion was outside her tent staring at her and there all night long making noises as she banged on a pan. She did not come out till hikers came by next morn."

Edit: You're right about stalking AND attacking... but it looks like there has been stalking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2013 06:11PM by Torero14.

Plawrence, Read my original post which is why I posted - this girl said she was stalked who I spoke to. The ranger I spoke to said this was the third encounter this year and that they were seeing one at both the restrooms near Nevada falls and little Yosemite. The girl I met was up near sunrise and was stalked - in her tent all night with the animal outside scratching a tree, making sounds all night long. She told me she banged a pan all night long, didn't yell cuz didn't want it to hear the fear in her voice and she didn't leave till morn when she heard some other hikers. It was this encounter that got me thinking and asking this question in this post. Currently I just carry a simple multipurpose lightweight knife on my belt

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Tedbay
Plawrence, Read my original post which is why I posted - this girl said she was stalked who I spoke to.

I did read it and replied to it last night. I'm glad that you reported the incident to a ranger. (I hope she did too.)

As I already stated on your trip report thread, this is very unusual behavior for a mountain lion (to stalk someone in their tent all night long), especially considering that there was their natural prey (deer) nearby.

Just curious, how did she know it was the mountain lion that was stalking her all night long? It was dark. Was she illuminating it with a flash light through an opening in her tent? I would presume that afterwards there would be many mountain lion paw prints around her campsite. Again, this is a very serious incident (to the point that mountain lion would probably be put down by the Park Service if the mountain lion started stalking all night long around backpackers campsites on a regular basis).

.

Many of the biologists I work with think it's time to reconsider the ban on hunting, at least in a limited way in some areas. Without any natural predators, a food source that is not limited to far off places--deer are everywhere now, and people moving into their space at greater numbers, it would be one way to limit encounters. The lion population is healthy and the ban is sort of a case of feel good public policy that doesn't necessarily mesh with reality, is the feeling I get from them.

^In line with that, on a visit to Grand Canyon a few years ago my daughter and I sat in on a ranger program in which they taught the kids about mountain lions and deer and such, and then they related a story that when development and tourism was really developing around that area, people saw that mountain lions were bringing down deer and thought that was bad. They wanted to protect Bambi, so mountain lions were hunted to extinction in the area. The result: the deer population exploded, they ate all available food, and then suffered a mass starvation. :-/

A California law just passed gives mountain lions special legal protection; Proposition 117 and now SB132 will likely result in an increase in their population, not to me mention widen their distribution.

According to Jim Sterba, author of “Nature Wars”, there may be more deer now than during the pre-Colonial Americas period: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204846304578090753716856728.html

If there is a strong correlation between the number of mountain lions to the number of deer, I’m wondering if we will end up with more mountain lions than ever before.

Photo of a mountain lion feeding.



------------------------------------------------
Photo of a 125-pound mountain lion:
http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-griffith-park-lion-20131005,0,6885857.story


According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cougar), a mountain lion weighing 125 pounds is below the average for a male:
Males typically weigh 53 to 100 kg (115 to 220 lb), averaging 62 kg (137 lb).
Females typically weigh between 29 and 64 kg (64 and 141 lb), averaging 42 kg (93 lb).
The largest recorded cougar, shot in Arizona, weighed 125.5 kg (276 lb) after its intestines were removed, indicating in life it could have weighed nearly 136.2 kg (300 lb).


Tracking mountain lions in the Santa Cruz Mountains:
http://blogs.kqed.org/science/video/science-on-the-spot-chasing-pumas/

Tracking mountain lions around L.A. (National Geographic):
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/12/cougars/chadwick-text

Photo of mountain lion eating a deer on Mulholland drive:
http://imgur.com/a/W0W4h

Mountain lions on the prowl in La Crescenta, CA:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/11/mountain-lions-la-crescenta_n_4426574.html

Mountain lions on the prowl in Missoula, MT:
http://missoulian.com/news/local/fwp-patrols-cold-springs-elementary-neighborhood-for-mountain-lions/article_22a4b06c-34f8-11e3-9b09-001a4bcf887a.html

Mountain lion prowls Sun Valley Ca home night boxer went missing:
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014/01/04/video-shows-mountain-lion-prowling-backyard-of-sun-valley-home-where-dog-went-missing/

Mountain lion attacks two dogs trailing mountain biker:
http://www.idahostatesman.com/2014/01/28/2995711/mountain-lion-attacks-two-dogs.html

Mountain lion stalks mother with children in Orange County; “It was just terrifying, I won’t be hiking again."
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-mountain-lion-killed-20140401,0,3332057.story#axzz2xgFfOJKB

Mountain lion kills german shepard in Fontana; "Cops were shooting their guns, but the lion kept coming back.":
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Aggressive-Mountain-Lion-Attack-Fontana-248603131.html

SWAT team joined in hunt for aggressive Fontana mountain lion:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-hunt-ends-mountain-lion-fontana-20140306,0,1260113.story#axzz2y8zWc2rf

Mountain lion leaps at golf course worker in Palm Springs:
http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/mountain-lion-attack-golf-course/2014/04/10/id/564779/

"Since lion populations started expanding, California’s deer population has declined from 2 million in the 1960s to 850,000 in the 1990s and an estimated 445,000 this past winter, according to DFW."
http://blog.sfgate.com/stienstra/2014/05/12/cougars-cant-order-in-so-they-eat-out/

Grand Canyon biologist died from pneumonic plague contracted from infected mountain lion:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-10-21-plague-grand-canyon_N.htm

Sunday school teacher in Morgan Hill sacrificed her life saving small boys from mountain lion (July 6th, 1909):
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=8574062


Video of Mountain lion taking down and finsihing off a mule deer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CLqJCGNCjo



Edited 21 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2014 11:13PM by KenS.

Dean Potter's cougar encounter just outside of Yosemite:

http://dogblog.ruffwear.net/2011/06/17/cougar-encounter-story-of-surviving-a-cougar-attack/

Apparently, nothing of this earth can kill that guy.

Homeless Man Critical After Being Attacked By Mountain Lion In Perris
February 1, 2014 10:53 PM

PERRIS, Calif. (KABC) -- Investigators say a 50-year-old homeless man was critically injured after being attacked by a mountain lion in Perris Saturday.

The man was not able to tell investigators what he was attacked by, but officials say his injuries suggest he was attacked by a cougar at a homeless encampment.

The attack occured off of Highway 74 located west of the 215 Freeway.

The unidentifed man was transported to a nearby hospital with lacerations, puncture wounds and bite marks at the base of the skull.


http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local/inland_empire&id=9416475

Wow, I hope he will be OK. One comment about the media. I was watching Good Morning America and the news streamer said that the man was attacked in a Los Angeles suburb. Perris is not a LA suburb. Bad enough that the guy got hurt but to lead on people that are not familiar to the area to believe it happened near a city is wrong.