Re: National Forests

We've all heard/read that the National Parks are "closed," how about the National Forests? Is there any reason I shouldn't go backpacking in Desolation this weekend? Clearly I can't get a permit, but otherwise it doesn't sound like there are any "stay out" messages being delivered. Anyone know differently?

Thanks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2013 08:53PM by vitaminC.

How much is opened depends on where you are going and unfortunately the websites are down. In the Angeles National Forest,you can still hike but all facilities are closed such as restrooms, visitor centers, campgrounds and parking lots and other areas that are gated. You will still need to have an Adventure Pass which can be a problem if you don't have one since the visitor centers are closed. Probably the other National Forests are the same.

Depends on the area, but I'm finding that universally all campgrounds and picnic areas are declared off-limits.

http://lakeelsinore-wildomar.patch.com/groups/politics-and-elections/p/cleveland-national-forest-closed-due-to-government-shutdown

This has got to be really crazy around Lake Tahoe. The economy of the area is heavily dependent on the FS. The following claims that the mandate is that all visitors must leave within 48 hours of the beginning of the shutdown:

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http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/southshore/snews/8362699-113/forest-service-federal-shutdown

According to a Department of Agriculture’s shutdown policy, during a government fallout of funding visitors of national forests must leave within 48 hours of the decree to shutdown the government agency.

This, from a New York Times blog, says that only national forest facilities are being closed, not the forests themselves:

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While closing gates around a national park or monument is relatively simple, closing a forest is not. Newspapers and radio and television news operations around the country are reporting that while offices and facilities within the national forests have been closed, the land is still open to outdoor enthusiasts.

http://intransit.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/03/with-shutdown-questions-about-visiting-national-forests/

A big chunk of the Stanislaus NF would be still closed from the Rim Fire. I'd be interested in what anyone knows about the Sierra NF or anything else of interest in the Mariposa-to-El Portal area.

Strangely enough, we've got a Forest Service office here in the Bay Area - in Albany just off of I-80. Not quite sure why it's there, but it shares a building with the USDA's Western Regional Research Center.



I looked it up. It's the FS's Pacific Southwest Research Station Their history is that they actually started off in a building on the UC Berkeley campus with the campus Dept of Forestry but eventually outgrew it and then found their way to Albany.

I was driving by there, and the gates appeared to be closed on Thursday.

With respect to Desolation...printing a permit would be the issue, recreation.gov is supposed to be out.

Curious...hopefully the self-serve permits are still in the box and usable at Leavitt Meadows - any first-hand confirmation?

I just got back from a weekend backpack on Tahoe NF land that doesn't require a permit (no Tahoe NF land does) - Grouse Lakes "Non-Motorized Recreation Area", north of CA-20 and east of Bowman Lake Road. I've wanted to check this area out for some time and now it's the only way to get my granite fix...anyway, road and trailhead parking were open (I started at Grouse Ridge Trailhead and went to Five Lakes Basin (not the same as the "Five Lakes" near Alpine Meadows Road in Tahoe). Campground near the trailhead - the outhouse was locked with closed signs, campground was marked closed with a sign and red tape, looked like someone had driven through the red tape (hopefully they bagged up their poop and mailed it to an appropriate Congressional office).

Pics later.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2013 05:45PM by ttilley.

I was up on the "Sierra Scenic Byway" i.e. Beasore Rd, Minarets Rd. this weekend. All the campgrounds were open and people were camping. Down at Bass Lake everything was locked up.
Meanwhile I had camping reservations in Yosemite Valley last night and tonight. I took the closure as a sign that it's time to get some things done at home.

The PCT north of I 80 doesn't require a permit. Paradise Lake about five miles out is beautiful.

In a similar boat, anyone know what would be the deal with BLM land? My buddy and I have been planning on doing the northern section of the Lost Coast in King Range NCA the last weekend of this month. I hear fines can be pretty hefty for "trespassers". I mean, we wouldn't be using any facilities at all and the permit is free and self-registered at the TH; it's not like we require any gov. resources to enjoy the land.

Between the Rim Fire canceling my Yosemite trip in Sept. and now the shut down blocking trips most everywhere I'd want to be... turning out to be a bummer for fall backpacking...

I guess I'm just looking for a definitive answer on whether or not folks are allowed to backpack in NF/BLM lands, if permits and such aren't needed from now closed facilities.

Are you from, or near, the East Bay Area? The Ohlone Trail can, of you do it right, take three days. None of it is on Federal lands.

Henry Coe is also a possibility. Just not ideal times for visiting those parks wrt prime scenery opportunities.

I'm in the south bay. I have the local regional/state stuff as backup (Ohlone Wilderness Trail, Henry Coe SP, SPs in Santa Cruz Mtns, Point Reyes - strike that...national seashore), but ideally, I want to do an away trip. I day-hike the Bay Area all the time, but I prefer to get out elsewhere for backpacking. Plus, I find the east/south bay much more enjoyable in spring for the greenery and water availability.

edited to add: I posted with you VitaminC, but yes, totally agree. Dispersed camping in Henry Coe can be nice just to get away for a bit, but I've done trips in summer and fall and don't prefer it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2013 12:14PM by HikingMano.

I googled around before driving out for the Tahoe NF backpack I mentioned above, and found stuff indicating that both USFS and BLM land are open as long as you don't need a permit - I was uncertain about self-register permits in boxes (which is why I asked if anyone has info on Leavitt Meadows, above).

One thought though...could you use Sinkyone Wilderness SP as a fallback if there's an issue w/ Lost Coast?

Ah, yes, the Leavitt Meadows self-serve permit situation is the same question. Hopefully someone who knows more can chime in .

As for Sinkyone Wilderness SP, that's also been an option; I hear there are some really nice sections of mix mountain/forest and beach you can do on that end. I think we just have our minds set on the doing the iconic northern section (I've only ever day hiked the northern section) before seeing the southern, plus I seem to recall reading somewhere that vehicular access is pretty sketchy if it rains hard. I'll have to look into it some more .

The Ohlone Trail is better in the spring. I think the spring at Maggies Half Acre runs all year.

I'll probably do it this spring. I've day-hiked portions of it, never did it all in one go. Good to know the Maggies Half Acre spring runs all year, was thinking about day-hiking Rose Peak from either end sometime soon, but hadn't really looked into water supply yet. Anyway, sorry for going so far off-topic.

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HikingMano
I'll probably do it this spring. I've day-hiked portions of it, never did it all in one go. Good to know the Maggies Half Acre spring runs all year, was thinking about day-hiking Rose Peak from either end sometime soon, but hadn't really looked into water supply yet. Anyway, sorry for going so far off-topic.

I've always done it starting at Sonol, hiking to the "back pack area" setting up camp at either Hawks Nest or Eagles Aerie. Year 'round water there too. Then the next day hike to Maggies for camp. The next day it's all down hill to Del Valle. There's water about 3/4 of the way down from Maggies.

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Dave
I've always done it starting at Sonol, hiking to the "back pack area" setting up camp at either Hawks Nest or Eagles Aerie. Year 'round water there too. Then the next day hike to Maggies for camp. The next day it's all down hill to Del Valle. There's water about 3/4 of the way down from Maggies.

Yeah, I'll probably do it west to east too, starting from Mission Peak maybe. The last time I was in Sunol, earlier this year, I dayhiked with the GF from Sunol to Eagle's Aerie area, turned around at the fence and gate. The spring-fed faucet is indeed nice. Some pics from that trip:

I have some pics from both...

Southern Section

Northern Section

Those sets are both from the section of the Lost Coast between Mattole and Shelter Cove, correct? That's the section of the Lost Coast are I'm hoping to do, though the southern side of the Lost Coast, from Needle Rock to Usal Beach, may be what we fall back to. If we do end up on the Lost Coast Trail from Mattole, since we won't be using a shuttle (too expensive), we may make a loop with Cooskie Ridge or something, though I hear the mountain camping is much less enjoyable than the beach. Thanks for the pics! Makes me really hope things open up again by the time our trip swings around.

Yes, I assumed by "south" you meant "from Shelter Cove" - my mistake.

Personally, I'd just go anyway (but hopefully this bullshit won't be an issue), I haven't been to Sinkyone but would like to sometime, and would treat it as a fallback plan. Though if you're starting at Mattole rather than Shelter Cove - the drive from the Redway-Shelter Cove Road to Mattole takes a bit of time, I wouldn't want to get to Mattole then drive back. If the BS is still going on could you plan to start at Shelter Cove and, if necessary, do the fallback w/ a much shorter drive?

Nah, not your mistake, just the usual internet communication deal; it's why I wanted to clarify.

Good point on having to drive back to Sinkyone if for some reason BLM access is truly blocked at or enroute to Mattole. My buddy and I were thinking about starting at Shelter Cove anyway, going S->N despite the wind, if for nothing else than to save a little time on the return drive to the bay. I think we decided on Mattole because it seems like it'd be more remote vs. starting from Black Sands Beach and Shelter Cove. Plus, I really want to check out Punta Gorda lighthouse, since the last time I was out at Mattole the GF and I didn't really have time to visit and within the tide timeframe, IIRC. Going N->S would ensure that visit, S->N is less certain in our timeframe. I think we can probably make it though.

It is a good idea: Shelter Cove start with Sinkyone nearby as backup. I'll discuss with my buddy, thanks for the additional thought-processing, ttilley!

Ah, thanks. That brings back memories. I'll have to go do that trail in the Spring. It's nice they allow me to take my llamas on that trail. The only bad part is by the signpost in that picture - the tar weed. I had a special pair of gaiters for that section.

Oh yeah, I was pickin the sticky stuff off my socks even with that little bit... Cool the trail allows llamas, do you use them as pack animals? (Last off-topic contribution from me, promise!).

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HikingMano
Oh yeah, I was pickin the sticky stuff off my socks even with that little bit... Cool the trail allows llamas, do you use them as pack animals? (Last off-topic contribution from me, promise!).

That's what llamas are for; pack animals. They're great at it too. It was at Maggies Half Acre, on our second day out, we decided to take a lay over day, and were sitting in the shade having a cold beer. (One of the llamas carried coolers with dry ice in them.) A backpacker was coming up the hill, going slow on this hot day. We offered him a beer. He hung around awhile, went home, and bought a llama.

Yeah, haha, just making sure. I had this image in my mind of dude-rancher excellence on the trail, and sure enough, you're doing it That's an awesome story! A cold drink on a hot hike in a completely unexpected environment from kind strangers... kudos! No better way to convince someone, haha.

Buddy of mine is working on training goats for his hunting trips. Interested in seeing how that goes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2013 07:40AM by HikingMano.

Some goats just can't be trained even if they live with a goat whisperer.

---

Old Dude

Haha, indeed. I forget which strain he has, but I think it's supposed to be one more amenable to training.

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Dave
(One of the llamas carried coolers with dry ice in them.)

Isn't dry ice bad for the environment?

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snorkus
Isn't dry ice bad for the environment?

No. It's a very short term cycle. It doesn't increase atmospheric CO2 since it was taken out of the atmosphere a few days, or weeks, earlier. Burning fossil fuels, with an extremely long term cycle, increases the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. Each gallon of gasoline burned in the average automobile produces 12 POUNDS of CO2 that had been removed from the atmosphere up to 180 million years ago.

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Dave

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snorkus
Isn't dry ice bad for the environment?

No. It's a very short term cycle. It doesn't increase atmospheric CO2 since it was taken out of the atmosphere a few days, or weeks, earlier. Burning fossil fuels, with an extremely long term cycle, increases the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. Each gallon of gasoline burned in the average automobile produces 12 POUNDS of CO2 that had been removed from the atmosphere up to 180 million years ago.

I don't think it works that way.. A gallon of gasoline contains less than six pounds of carbon. That was laid down long ago. The oxygen was not removed from the atmosphere 180 million years ago, or there would be oxygen gushers next to the oil wells. So you don't get to count its weight in the CO2 as "having been removed from the atmosphere"...

The carbon in the gasoline was 'fixed' millions of years ago. Burning it releases the carbon into the atmosphere.

There is research into whether blue-green algae farms can produce kerotin, a petroleum pre-cursor, in a useful quantity. Suppose this works. That carbon would have been fixed within a short timeframe of when it would be released into the atmosphere.

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snorkus
Isn't dry ice bad for the environment?

It's CO₂ but would have been released into the atmosphere anyway.

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eeek
It's CO₂ but would have been released into the atmosphere anyway.

The CO₂ it was made from came from the atmosphere. Now, a case could be made that the energy used to extract and cool down the CO₂ down to about -100F could be harmful to the atmosphere.

I was up in the Toiyobe National Forest / Hoover Wilderness this last weekend (trip report on the way) and as we hiked in we bumped into a furloughed Forest service Ranger out on a day hike. He as very friendly, gave us some route advice, and scolded us for not self-registering for a wilderness report (given the government shutdown situation I hadn't even thought of doing that) and he even volunteered to do a self reg for us. There were a ton of people out there, both day hikers and backpackers.

Good to know .

Thanks for the confirmation.

Regarding BLM Lands, I did manage to find this release:

Particularly relevant:

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BLM FAQ
Will I be able to visit BLM-managed public lands?
All recreation facilities, including campgrounds, boat ramps etc., will be closed. If it is a non-developed recreational destination with no controlled access, you may visit. However, there will be no services and there will no non-emergency services available.

My guess is the same applies to NF land if permits are self-service... not sure on areas where permits need to be obtained from a facility.

This doc might also be useful.

I think the other thread on Inyo NF addresses the question of when permits need to be obtained from a facility - the area is not open for overnight use. The weird case then would be Stanislaus NF - no quota, but their practice is to provide permits from the office rather than self-serve.

Ah, just read eeek's thread, thanks . Well, let's just hope the situation resolves in a timely manner (and with real effect, not just band-aid measures), so we don't have to guess anymore.