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Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.

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avatar Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 11, 2013 11:02AM
From DNC's Badger Pass Facebook page:

“We're sorry to report that Badger Pass Ski Area will not open as scheduled for this Friday, December 13th. We don't create snow at California's historic first ski resort and we haven't received enough snow to create a base for skiing. We'll keep you updated with a new opening date. Keep your fingers crossed for more snow!”


avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 11, 2013 09:30PM
Does anyone have a list of opening dates? I'd like to see how climate change has moved it back over the years.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 11, 2013 11:45PM
It would be nice if an expert could explain how global warming has caused the deep freeze that the entire country is experiencing now. wink

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avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 12, 2013 08:28AM
Oh, we already figured that out; it gets cold every winter. It would be nice if climate change deniers would learn the difference between weather and climate.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 12, 2013 08:40AM
Yeah, it sure would be nice if climate alarmists would learn the difference between weather and climate.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 12, 2013 10:09AM
I know of no such thing as a "climate alarmist." Such a term is a strawman invented by deniers that are immune to the facts. Those of us dealing with the facts do know the difference between weather and climate, and fact from fantasy.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 12, 2013 12:36PM
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Dave
It would be nice if climate change deniers would learn the difference between weather and climate.

Learn? Can they do that?
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 12, 2013 06:20PM
Apparently not. I've had the misfortune of dealing with several. Their ONLY argument is that climate change is a "Liberal hoax." Everything else they claim is based on that argument. Science, to them, is irrelevant.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 13, 2013 07:49AM
Climate is always changing. It's natural. The idea that a small increase in a trace gas in the atmosphere is causing some climate catastrophe is ludicrous. CO2 has never and cannot drive climate. This whole idea is coming from climate models that incorrectly assume a large positive feedback from water vapor. The feedback has been shown to be mildly negative, not positive. The most that the increase in CO2 could possible do is increase temps by an almost unmeasurable 0.2 C. There has been no warming for 15 years which has falsified all the models.

This is the real science. I cannot change the minds of the disciples of the Church of Environmentalism so go ahead and cling to your faith based beliefs.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 13, 2013 08:04AM
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Calaveras
Climate is always changing. It's natural.
Duh! No one has claimed otherwise.

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The idea that a small increase in a trace gas in the atmosphere is causing some climate catastrophe is ludicrous.
No one has ever made such a claim.

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CO2 has never and cannot drive climate.
That simply is not true. It's just a baseless, non scientific, claim thrown out and echoed by deniers. The role of CO2 in the atmosphere was figured out by Joseph Fourier in the 1820s and has only been reaffirmed by succeeding scientists. ONLY climate change deniers claim otherwise.

The rest of your arguments were just more of the same tripe, not based on science. Climate change is not based on models, it is based on over a hundred years of measurements. Climate change is not based on predictions, it's based on what is happening and what HAS happened.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 14, 2013 04:48PM
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Dave
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Calaveras

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CO2 has never and cannot drive climate.
That simply is not true. It's just a baseless, non scientific, claim thrown out and echoed by deniers. The role of CO2 in the atmosphere was figured out by Joseph Fourier in the 1820s and has only been reaffirmed by succeeding scientists. ONLY climate change deniers claim otherwise.

Yes, it was figured out long ago and the effect is logarithmic. The largest impact on temperature is in the first 20 ppm. At a level of 280 ppm CO2 has done about all it can do. Doubling from that level can raise temperatures by 1 C at most. Since we're only halfway there the impact can only be 0.5 C but there seems to be negative feedbacks in the system to lessen the effect. At the levels that CO2 has been at over geologic time it cannot be a significant climate driver.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 13, 2013 07:09PM
For those that want more information, SCIENTIFIC information, about climate change go to the Howard Hughes Medical Insitute, a credible scientific organization, and watch, or get the FREE DVD. You won't even have to pay postage. Here's the link. They have dozens of other free DVDs on many topics.

Once people know the science then we can discuss that instead of coal/oil company disinformation.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 14, 2013 09:00AM
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Dave
For those that want more information, SCIENTIFIC information, about climate change go to the Howard Hughes Medical Insitute, a credible scientific organization, and watch, or get the FREE DVD. You won't even have to pay postage. Here's the link. They have dozens of other free DVDs on many topics.

I could supply links to non-alarmist sites but people can do their own research. I'm not trying to change your mind.

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Once people know the science then we can discuss that instead of coal/oil company disinformation.

Please tell me that you are not repeating this myth that climate skeptics are funded by big oil? This is completely untrue and an ongoing joke in the climate skeptic world with everyone asking when is their check is going to arrive? Head roll

More than a decade ago we were told that we had 10 years to stop global warming. The time has past and nothing has happened. Over the past 50 years there have been many doomsday predictions by "scientists" that have not come true. Catastrophic climate change (used to be global warming but since that one failed they had to change it) is just another one of these predictions. It is not based on science. It's based on distorted science, bent and cherry picked in the same way that Creationists claim that science supports their beliefs. I can't change their beliefs and neither can I change the beliefs of the Catastrophic Climate Change crowd. This is one reason why it's a religion. Beliefs are impervious to facts. No amount of research I present will make any difference. Ever try to argue with a Creationist? eye rolling smiley

When are we going to stop believing predictions from these people that fail over and over? It's no different from the guy on the street with a sign saying the world is going to end on some date and when that date comes and nothing happens, the date is simply changed.

Michael Crichton addressed this issue a decade ago and it remains an interesting read:

http://www.forces.org/articles/files/crichton.htm

Like Michael, I'm a supporter of scientific based environmentalism but not the Church of Environmentalism. The problem is that it is very hard for most of us to separate the two. The Church would be easy to identify if it was contained in the well known environmental organizations but it has spread its tentacles into mainstream science and now government to use that power to force its beliefs upon the rest of us in the form of laws.

Time for another separation of church and state.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 14, 2013 09:06AM
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Calaveras
I could supply links to non-alarmist sites but people can do their own research. I'm not trying to change your mind....
You could change my mind if you provided some scientific arguments. You did not even attempt to provide any. All you gave were just the same old, trite and thoroughly refuted, denialist arguments. I do not get my science from Hollywood personalities. Climate change is not based on predictions of the future, but over a century of measurements. Just give me the science, leave the fluff out.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 14, 2013 04:35PM
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Dave
You could change my mind if you provided some scientific arguments. You did not even attempt to provide any. All you gave were just the same old, trite and thoroughly refuted, denialist arguments. I do not get my science from Hollywood personalities. Climate change is not based on predictions of the future, but over a century of measurements. Just give me the science, leave the fluff out.

Yes, a century and a half of measurements that say the Earth has warmed about 1 C since the end of the Little Ice Age around 1850. No big deal. Nothing bad has happened. If you agree with this then we have no issues with the past. If you disagree, then what do you disagree with? What are your concerns with the future?
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 14, 2013 05:13PM
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Calaveras
Yes, a century and a half of measurements that say the Earth has warmed about 1 C since the end of the Little Ice Age around 1850. No big deal. Nothing bad has happened. If you agree with this then we have no issues with the past. If you disagree, then what do you disagree with? What are your concerns with the future?
As I said; I'll debate the science, not misinformation. Yes, trying to have a discussion with a climate change denier is like arguing with a creationist; not worth the bother.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 15, 2013 07:11AM
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Dave
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Calaveras
Yes, a century and a half of measurements that say the Earth has warmed about 1 C since the end of the Little Ice Age around 1850. No big deal. Nothing bad has happened. If you agree with this then we have no issues with the past. If you disagree, then what do you disagree with? What are your concerns with the future?
As I said; I'll debate the science, not misinformation. Yes, trying to have a discussion with a climate change denier is like arguing with a creationist; not worth the bother.

It's pretty hard to debate science when you won't even say what you disagree with.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 15, 2013 08:04AM
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Calaveras
It's pretty hard to debate science when you won't even say what you disagree with.
You've not presented any arguments based on the actual science involved for me to disagree with.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 15, 2013 02:41PM
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Dave
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Calaveras
It's pretty hard to debate science when you won't even say what you disagree with.
You've not presented any arguments based on the actual science involved for me to disagree with.

Whose science would you like to see? How about the IPCC? I'm no fan of them but you guys typically like to use them.

http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/syr/en/spms1.html

Check out the first part of Figure SPM.1 - 1 C increase from 1850 to the present.

Do you disagree with that? If so, what is your number and where did it come from?
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 15, 2013 06:13PM
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Calaveras
Whose science would you like to see? How about the IPCC? I'm no fan of them but you guys typically like to use them.
I use science. Science goes by facts, not factions.

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Check out the first part of Figure SPM.1 - 1 C increase from 1850 to the present.
Considering the size of the atmosphere and the energy it would take for such an increase, that's quite a bit. That one degree C has caused glaciers around the world to melt, caused oceans to rise, larger storms, melting ice caps, ocean acidification, shifting weather patterns, plant and animal species to move "up hill", etc. And remember that it is not ONLY the atmosphere that is warming, the oceans are too. That warming accounts for most of the sea level rise. None of those things are predictions, but recorded and verified facts.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 15, 2013 08:00PM
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Dave
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Calaveras
Whose science would you like to see? How about the IPCC? I'm no fan of them but you guys typically like to use them.
I use science. Science goes by facts, not factions.

There has always been factions in science. Some people support one theory of something, others support another theory. Eventually it gets worked out. You obviously believe in the CAGW theory. I don't. It's yet to be fully worked out but right now reality is disproving it and you guys are scrambling.

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Considering the size of the atmosphere and the energy it would take for such an increase, that's quite a bit. That one degree C has caused glaciers around the world to melt, caused oceans to rise, larger storms, melting ice caps, ocean acidification, shifting weather patterns, plant and animal species to move "up hill", etc. And remember that it is not ONLY the atmosphere that is warming, the oceans are too. That warming accounts for most of the sea level rise. None of those things are predictions, but recorded and verified facts.

So you don't disagree with what I said. I can provide links to graphs for other things if I want to spend my time doing it.

You do realize that a large portion of the warming occurred before 1940 (see graph I referenced) and before there was much of any rise in CO2 so the warming had to be natural? Why would a continuation of that trend suddenly become anthropogenic?

In regards to your list.....

Glaciers melting: That's what happens in a warming world. No surprise. Melting coastal glaciers in Greenland have revealed ancient tree stumps showing the glaciers were much smaller in the past indicating a warmer world.

Rising Sea Level: Sea level has been rising at a constant rate for a long time and if anything that rate has slowed a little recently. There are graphs for this too. Nothing to be concerned about. Adaptation is the word.

Larger Storms: Sorry but this is false and is made up by the CAGW crowd. There is lots of data available on this. Extreme weather events are not on the increase. Anyone who believes this is unfamiliar with history. Tornados are down. Hurricanes are currently in a lull. Don't anyone take my word for it. Do your own research.

Melting Ice Caps: It's true that arctic summer ice has been trending down recently. But antarctic ice is at a satellite era max record. There's a lot of theories out there in published papers about arctic ice. It's not as simple as temperature. No one really knows. A popular current theory is soot melting ice which you can blame on humans. The are many maritime accounts of a nearly ice-free arctic in some years back in the 1600's and 1700's. It's not solely a modern phenomenon.

Ocean Acidification: This is a major misnomer. The ocean is nowhere near acidic. Some measurements show a very small shift but nothing to be concerned about at this time.

Shifting weather patterns: Sure, weather patterns shift, but much if not all of that is caused by natural oscillations in the oceans; the PDO, AMO, ENSO and more I probably don't know about. I cannot cite you any science that can extract an anthropogenic signature from all these natural cycles.

Species moving up hill: This is one I need to do more research on. I admit that I'm skeptical that this is true in general, maybe specific cases. This would have to do with temperature and there are problems with the temperature record and conflicting measurements. I'm sure you're familiar with the Surface Stations Project. Yes, it's located at one of those awful skeptic sites but it's forced NOAA to make changes to their procedures and some stations. When you look at the temperature record, across the board rural sites with well sited instruments don't show warming in the 20th century. Urban stations, often with poorly sited instruments, show warming likely from the Urban Heat Island effect. Along with a method called Homogenization used to fill in missing data (something that would have been taboo when I was taking data at work), this makes the overall surface temperature record positive. A prediction of AGW theory is that the lower troposphere temperature in the equatorial regions should be increasing but no increase is present in the data. There are problems with calculating the global temperature and I don't think anyone has it right yet.

There's plenty of published science out there to counter whatever you believe is the real science. Just because it doesn't come from the Hockey Team doesn't make it invalid.

Unless you have something you want to ask me this should be about the end of this thread for me. None of this is to convince you of anything but just to offer a different point of view to others reading this.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 15, 2013 09:22PM
I assumed you'd respond with the usual mythinformation, and you did.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 14, 2013 12:33PM
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Calaveras
I could supply links to non-alarmist sites

But you won't. And even if you did, a little research would most likely reveal them to have ties to denier interests. The fact is the science is quite solid.
avatar Re: Badger Pass needs more snow. Opening delayed.
December 14, 2013 04:25PM
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eeek
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Calaveras
I could supply links to non-alarmist sites

But you won't. And even if you did, a little research would most likely reveal them to have ties to denier interests. The fact is the science is quite solid.

You haven't made it clear what you mean by climate change. I assume you mean anthropogenic climate change. If it's something else, please say what it is. The fact that the Earth has warmed about 1 C since the end of the Little Ice Age around 1850 is solid science. But that is natural, not anthropogenic. To argue otherwise means you don't understand the science. You haven't posted any links to any science that says otherwise and if you did a little research would most likely reveal then to have ties to alarmist interests.

The forecast of extreme warming of up to 6 C by 2100 is based on climate models. All models have predicted warming over the past 15 years. Since no warming has occurred the models have been falsified.

Here's a recent article posted by Dr. William Gray of hurricane fame on climate models.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/12/10/on-the-futility-of-long-range-numerical-climate-prediction/#more-98962

I suppose you'll reject it out of hand because it is at WUWT.
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