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Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying

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avatar Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 14, 2014 11:19PM
By Sharon Bernstein


GROVELAND Calif. (Reuters) - Long, heavy logging trucks, swaying with the weight of charred California pines, wind through the forest near Yosemite National Park, part of an effort to clean up from last year’s devastating wildfires even as new blazes break out this summer

But as the U.S. Forest Service prepares to release plans this month for selling thousands of the burned trees to logging companies, conflict is brewing with residents who say the trucks are dangerous and environmentalists who fear the project is just an excuse for making money.

more here



The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
avatar Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 15, 2014 07:02PM
"Clean up"? Huh? How did nature "clean up" for the billions of years before humans came along?
avatar Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 15, 2014 08:30PM
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Dave
"Clean up"? Huh? How did nature "clean up" for the billions of years before humans came along?

Perhaps they mean "clean up" as in a windfall (or the money variety).
avatar Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 16, 2014 04:36PM
Quote
eeek
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Dave
"Clean up"? Huh? How did nature "clean up" for the billions of years before humans came along?
Perhaps they mean "clean up" as in a windfall (or the money variety).
That's true. They care not about the forest, or it's ecosystem, only the money.
avatar Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 16, 2014 04:40PM
Yes, past fire suppression has created a problem in SOME areas. That does not justify removing the burned trees which are a store house of nutrients and tearing up the soil, making new roads, to get them. I'm not convinced that we will have a fire that will sterilize the Sierra. Nature can take care of itself. All we do is mess things up.
avatar Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 16, 2014 08:47PM
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Dave
They care not about the forest, or it's ecosystem, only the money.

It was McClintock that pushed the bill through Congress; so of course it's only about the money.
Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 16, 2014 08:14AM
Dave,

We have a very abnormal environment up in the forests right now, created by our abnormal fire suppression for the last 100 years. As a result, there are many, many more trees than the land would naturally support. When a fire comes along and burns and kills them, but does not consume them, what you have is land that is absolutely covered with firewood! The next spark that comes around will set off a fire that will burn so hotly, that it will kill ALL trees, and sterilize the soil, requiring decades, if not a century, to re-establish to a normal condition again.

Getting that abnormal wood supply out of there will much more create a situation similar to the natural, which existed for thousands of years before we got involved.

A good visual representation of what has happened is found here:
http://www.norcalrxfirecouncil.org/uploads/Scott_Stephens.pdf

Look at slide 6, which is a spot before fire suppression....a normal forest

Then look at slide 7, about 100 years later, and what has happened.

Prepare to be shocked!
Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 16, 2014 10:01AM
While I agree with you about how with the 100 year suppression policy has created an abnormal environment for our forests, I personally disagree with removing the burned wood. By doing that it there are environmental consequences some of which are disturbing the soil by equipment, removing nutrients that would be produced by the decomposition of the burned wood, removing snags that could be used for habitats and so on. We went to Yellowstone a year after the fires and saw how devastated some of the areas were but also how new growth was being established. Now each time we go to Yellowstone we return to the exact same spot and have been able to see how it is progressing without human intervention and that progression is how nature intended it to go. As the years go by, it will be interesting to compare the Rim Fire's recovery of the forest in the areas that are being salvaged and in the park where there is minimal human intervention.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2014 10:42AM by parklover.
Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 16, 2014 10:27AM
Why must people always overdo everything? It's dumb to go in and do the equivalent of clear-cutting, leaving a torn-up wasteland. It's also dumb to leave it all in place as giant woodpile waiting for an even more disastrous fire. What they should do is clear out at least half of it, leaving islands of untouched stuff for the habitat that you referred to. The cleared areas would allow for easy fire lines between the uncut areas in the future.

Following the Arch Rock fire, the area between Foresta and the Devils Dance Floor eventually became one of those wood piles. The pickup sticks were piled at least six feet high, and overgrown with brush. It all made for a wonderful killing fire later on, where the fire killed absolutely everything. Yes, the brush has now starting to grow back, but there are no live trees left to reseed the forest. That is what is most unnatural about the current Rim Fire situation. I hope that they will use some of the logging money for reforestation along the ridge lines.

Of course, using a more moderate approach also has the advantage that everyone on both sides of the argument will hate you.
Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 16, 2014 10:21PM
Park,

that, of course, is the standard environmental THEORETICAL argument. I have not seen any studies that have borne out that APPROPRIATELY logged forests have depleted soils, that they have less wildlife than forest that has not been fire protected, and thus is ACTUALLY natural.

All those trees up there is abnormal, and leaving them up there continues the abnormalities, with unpredictable results (except more big fires)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2014 12:52PM by Ken M.
Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 16, 2014 11:26PM
Like I said:

....Of course, using a more moderate approach also has the advantage that everyone on both sides of the argument will hate you.
avatar Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 17, 2014 12:15AM
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Ken M
I have not seen any studies that have borne out that APPROPRIATELY logged forests have depleted soils

Have you bothered looking for them?
Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 20, 2014 12:43PM
why, yes, eeek, I have.
avatar Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 17, 2014 06:19AM
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Ken M
Perk,

that, of course, is the standard environmental THEORETICAL argument. I have not seen any studies that have borne out that APPROPRIATELY logged forests have depleted soils, that they have less wildlife than forest that has not been fire protected, and thus is ACTUALLY natural.

All those trees up there is abnormal, and leaving them up there continues the abnormalities, with unpredictable results (except more big fires)
Just because you have not read a study doesn't mean the soils are not being depleted. Not all the forests here are "dog hair" forests. A fire would reduce the number of trees. The Rim Fire stopped when it reached areas with recent burn histories. We could use some cleansing fires, but not the logging. How about selectively logging BEFORE a fire hits? Oh, they did that along Evergreen Road. That part burned just a quickly as the rest.
Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 17, 2014 10:35AM
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Dave

Quote
Ken M
s. The Rim Fire stopped when it reached areas with recent burn histories.

The Rim Fire stopped at the fire breaks created by firefighters and granite slopes.
avatar Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 17, 2014 10:00PM
Quote
cmon4day
The Rim Fire stopped at the fire breaks created by firefighters and granite slopes.
Some parts yes. A large part, no.
Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 18, 2014 05:47PM
Like I said, cut some and leave some.
See:
Debate Simmers Over Forest Recovery

at link:
news story

As far as I can tell, the people posting here want to either cut everything or cut nothing. Dumb.

The real debate ought to be how to get some of the logging fees into escrow for forest reclamation, so it doesn't just disappear into the general fund. They already do some of this sort of thing for strip mining.

Not that I love strip mining. Just saying. Please don't hijack this thread to rant about that topic...
Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 19, 2014 10:49AM
I haven't seen anyone who wants to cut everything.

I would only advocate evaluating the trees that are dead, of a size to represent commercial value.

We HAVE to cut the burn load. from the Oakhurst fire report in the Fresno Bee:

"The fire started in the northern end of Oakhurst and was initially moving away from the community. But when the winds shifted to the southeast, he said, the fire moved toward town.

About 5:30 p.m., the winds shifted again, pushing the fire back toward the northeast. That's about when Pacific Gas & Electric Co. cut power to nearly 4,000 customers in and around Oakhurst, spokesman J.D. Guidi said. By Monday night, power remained out for about 2,000 customers.

By nightfall, the fire had jumped Highway 41 and was spreading near the Lewis Creek drainage area below Bass Lake where the terrain is steep, the brush is overgrown and there is a lot of fallen timber.

Read more here: http://www.fresnobee.com/2014/08/18/4076154/brushfire-breaks-out-near-oakhurst.html#storylink=cpy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2014 10:56AM by Ken M.
avatar Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 19, 2014 06:34PM
Yes, we all understand perfectly well that there is a lot of fuel out there. That is not the issue.
Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 20, 2014 01:00PM
Of course that's not the issue. The issue is doing everything possible to punish those who work in the forestry industry, as often as possible. If, in doing so, you happen to also damage the forest, well, that's just collateral damage.....
avatar Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 20, 2014 06:34PM
Quote
Ken M
Of course that's not the issue. The issue is doing everything possible to punish those who work in the forestry industry, as often as possible. If, in doing so, you happen to also damage the forest, well, that's just collateral damage.....
That is an absurd claim that cannot be backed by any rational argument or evidence.
Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 23, 2014 09:06PM
Well, Dave, I have seen no suggestion from you that there is ANY method or way that ANY trees could be logged at ANY time, ANYPLACE, for ANY reason.

While I see you do that, I see the forests becoming more overgrown every year, for 100 years in a row.

I see increasing frequency and severity of forest fires over time. These fires in severely overgrown forests cause much more damage that the low ground fires of a century ago.

I see you expressing NO concern about these fires, or suggesting ANY method of mitigation of the risk. In fact, you appear to celebrate the increasing fire load, and pray for more, so that artificially elevated levels of wildlife can be supported in a way that the lands have never supported.

That is an OBSERVATION, not an opinion.

perhaps that is not rational enough for you, but that's what I see.

My interpretation is zealotry and punitive desires. That IS opinion.
Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 19, 2014 08:45PM
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Dave
Quote
cmon4day
The Rim Fire stopped at the fire breaks created by firefighters and granite slopes.
Some parts yes. A large part, no.

I have to disagree with you. The fire did not just stop at an old burn. Take a look at old burns in the area. (see map at this link http://www.sierraforestlegacy.org/NR_SFVoiceNewsletter/SFVN_NewsletterCurrent.php) Fire burned right through the old burns. Stopped only when it got to dozer and hand lines put in and natural barriers such as water or granite slabs. Now if you want to say that fire intensity was less, depending on the age of the burn, I can agree with you on that one.
avatar Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 19, 2014 09:18PM
I think that the fire weathered-out, too. We had a couple of storms that hit the area and really shut down the aggressive movement of the flames (it smoldered for months after)



The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2014 09:18PM by Bee.
avatar Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 20, 2014 06:33PM
Quote
cmon4day
I have to disagree with you. The fire did not just stop at an old burn. Take a look at old burns in the area. (see map at this link http://www.sierraforestlegacy.org/NR_SFVoiceNewsletter/SFVN_NewsletterCurrent.php) Fire burned right through the old burns. Stopped only when it got to dozer and hand lines put in and natural barriers such as water or granite slabs. Now if you want to say that fire intensity was less, depending on the age of the burn, I can agree with you on that one.
You can disagree with me, but I'm going by the maps that showed areas with prior burn histories and how the Rim Fire stopped, or considerably slowed down in those areas. Please do not make the blatantly false assumption that I am talking about the entire fire stopping at previously burned areas.
Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 20, 2014 07:36PM
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Dave
Quote
cmon4day
Please do not make the blatantly false assumption that I am talking about the entire fire stopping at previously burned areas.

Well Dave, you did say Some parts yes, large part no. Looking at the maps that I posted a link for it really doesn't support that. Just saying.
avatar Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 20, 2014 08:16PM
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cmon4day
Well Dave, you did say Some parts yes, large part no. Looking at the maps that I posted a link for it really doesn't support that. Just saying.
I never said "in large part." That's a gross misinterpretation of what I said. Just saying.
Re: Plan to sell burned California trees sends sparks flying
August 20, 2014 10:30PM
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Dave
Quote
cmon4day
Well Dave, you did say Some parts yes, large part no. Looking at the maps that I posted a link for it really doesn't support that. Just saying.
I never said "in large part." That's a gross misinterpretation of what I said. Just saying.
You are right. I stand corrected. You didn't say "in large part".. You said "a large part". Sorry if I misquoted you.
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