Re: Trail Trash or Relic?

We have all been out traveling around in the backcountry and have come across trail trash...old cans, a granola bar wrapper that slipped out of somebody's pocket, a thrown horseshoe, the ubiquitous mylar balloon. So taking the "leave no trace" ethic a bit further to "leave it cleaner than you found it", I will pick up the trash and haul it out. (Well the horseshoes sometimes get left behind depending on how far I have to go). So it was on last weekend's trip (report on the way) when we came across the following:


Clearly, whether this stuff was found in a National Park or otherwise it was trash and I obviously hauled it out without a second thought. The question got a little more interesting, however, when we stumbled across this under a small cairn on the side of a mountain above Anne Lake, at an elevation of about 10,300 feet, in the Ansel Adams Wilderness:


What to do? Is this a "relic" that should be left undisturbed? Or just older, cool-looking trail trash that needs to be removed?

I ended up hauling it out. Should I do something like this?

And now I am wondering who left it, why, and what might be inside....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2014 12:24PM by Bearproof.

Based on the speech we get drilled into us every year at the Yosemite Facelift event by the Yosemite archeological staff, that pipe tobacco can is definitely older than 50 years old, and as such, should be left undisturbed.
Presumably, so they can study the habits of long-departed smokers and beer drinkers (the later in the form of crumbling, ancient rusted steel beer cans)
I'm not making this stuff up!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2014 01:22PM by PineCone.

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PineCone
Based on the speech we get drilled into us every year at the Yosemite Facelift event by the Yosemite archeological staff, that pipe tobacco can is definitely older than 50 years old, and as such, should be left undisturbed.
Presumably, so they can study the habits of long-departed smokers and beer drinkers (the later in the form of crumbling, ancient rusted steel beer cans)
I'm not making this stuff up!

Fifty years? So the great Sentinel Dome Dump would qualify?
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,59928,59928

Yep, that is their benchmark now, if it looks 50+ years old, they want you to leave it undisturbed.
That rusty beer can you find crumbling away in the backcountry may have been quaffed by Ansel Adams for instance after snapping one of his many iconic images. Don't touch it!
Think about the Twinkie wrapper that blew away (unnoticed of course) from the camp of chick-on, and settled hidden in the weeds. Many years from now, archeologists will uncover it again, and learn much about the habits and wanderings of the pink fowl from studying that wrapper...

I suspect that I'm late to the party - but since you mention it, what exactly is going on with the Mylar balloons? I'm just back from a trip around the Cherry Creek area, and combined with my trip last year, this area has resulted in a total of 5 Mylar balloon finds. I can understand that they take a long time (> a human lifetime?) to decompose, but is there some kind of Bermuda Balloon Triangle happening here that causes all wayward Mylar to end up here?

It was funny that after 6 full days of not seeing any (other) remnants of humans on cross-country travel, we had racked up 3 balloons.

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ags
I suspect that I'm late to the party - but since you mention it, what exactly is going on with the Mylar balloons? I'm just back from a trip around the Cherry Creek area, and combined with my trip last year, this area has resulted in a total of 5 Mylar balloon finds. I can understand that they take a long time (> a human lifetime?) to decompose, but is there some kind of Bermuda Balloon Triangle happening here that causes all wayward Mylar to end up here?

It was funny that after 6 full days of not seeing any (other) remnants of humans on cross-country travel, we had racked up 3 balloons.

Mylar balloons are not very expandable, so if they are released, they will go up to the thinner air at a particular altitude where the weight of the air displaced equals their total weight (depending somewhat on temperature and barometric pressure). Prevailing westerlies will take them to the sierra at that altitude, where they will snag on something and lie there slowly deflating.

It's more like the Sargasso Sea than the Bermuda Triangle, but you are basically right.

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Bearproof

And now I am wondering who left it, why, and what might be inside....

As a kid (more than 50 years ago) one of the absolutly roll on the floor laughing phone gags was to call a liquor store and ask if they had Prince Albert in a can. Of course they always answered yes to which we would reply, "Don't you think you oughta let him out?". Click.

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Old Dude

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mrcondron
As a kid (more than 50 years ago) one of the absolutly roll on the floor laughing phone gags was to call a liquor store and ask if they had Prince Albert in a can. Of course they always answered yes to which we would reply, "Don't you think you oughta let him out?". Click.

Had fun with such a caller (two giggling girls) one time. Seems they didn't know about *69.

"Presumably, so they can study the habits of long-departed smokers and beer drinkers (the later in the form of crumbling, ancient rusted steel beer cans) "

^^^^ That's the made up stuff.

It is federal law not to disturb such things >50 years old. It is considered looting, and it is a felony.

I can't speak to Anne Lake (although I've been there!) (great place), but in Yosemite just to the north, the original custodians of the park was the army. They may have ranged out as far as Anne (which would be news), They may have regular patrols to Anne (which would be news).

These were also used as protectors of the first registers. Inside may be the original register from the mountain from which you took it. It may have names on it like Adams, Norman Clyde, David Brower (and may document climbs that nobody knew about)------but you may not have the skills to extract it without destroying it.

It's clear that you took it in good faith, but also in good faith, I'd consider calling the Sierra National Forest headquarters in Clovis, and ask to speak to one of the archaeologists who may be able to guide you. I have worked with them often as a volunteer Wilderness Ranger on that forest, and they are very cool people.

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Ken M
It is federal law not to disturb such things >50 years old. It is considered looting, and it is a felony.

Yes, and my comments were intended to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I fully agree with you that the archeologists are cool folks, and historically significant material has to be protected. I also think the law is intended to also help compensate for people who cannot determine 20 year old trash from 120 year old trash.
That being said, not all federal laws are well thought out. Yes the army were early stewards of the park, but I can assure you they weren't smoking this Prince Albert pipe tobacco, as the lithographed tin can pictured here is circa 1930s to 1950s.
I personally think it's going a bit overboard to worry about a lone old pipe tobacco can, or a single early-1960s Mountain Dew can (yes, a circa-1964 pull tab soda pop can now qualifies) found out in the wilderness, laying exposed on a rock, or what-have-you. That's still simply unsightly trash to me.
I've participated in the annual Fall Facelift every year since it started, and the park archeologists do put out an informative and interesting display of the types of items that are historically significant, and they wish to remain undisturbed. I fully support their efforts...just don't agree with the newer extremes of the age range. A 1963 Hostess fruit pie wrapper (assuming it would actually survive all those winters) found squashed into the ground in the woods near Happy Isles is not historically significant! (It might be considered art however, with that colorful depiction of Fruit Pie The Magician on the label!)
Just my 2 cents!

Found Prince Albert a couple of other places inside the park before:
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,63090,64746#msg-64746

And soooo many balloons.. which sometimes come in handy:
http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?17,72545,72545#msg-72545

There's a saying...
"You can take the Trash out of the Trailerpark... but you can't take the Trailerpark out of the Trash"



Trail Trash?
Tailerpark Trash?

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chick-on

There's a saying...
"You can take the Trash out of the Trailerpark... but you can't take the Trailerpark out of the Trash"



Trail Trash?
Tailerpark Trash?

Are you trashing me? Is it the hat?

If the hat fits...

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Going out of business sale!

Because the Glacier Point Hotel burned down in 1969, the great Sentinel Dome Dump will convert from trash to sacred artifacts in less than five years. This is your last chance to get in on the fun. Help yourself. There is plenty for all. Some photos can be found on the original link here: trash link

Here are a few more:











Or, cleaned up a little:

Fifty Years old used to sound like it was really old. Maybe even beyond relic status...practically pre-historic. But now that I apparently qualify as a relic it kind of hurts, to be honest. Fifty years old, hell that's the new 19. Definitely not a relic. In fact, my wife keeps wondering when I am going to grow up.

So I contacted a well-respected archeologist friend of mine and had him look at this thread. His thoughts:
'On the Prince Albert can, if they are over 50 years old, and in accordance with federal law (and NPS regs, since I presume you found it within the park, or on USFS lands - which would be the same), it is considered a potential historic 'artifact' and should be left in place. We have found many PA cans under cairns. If you had a newer note in it, I'd think someone tampered with it already. What they were used for, ubiquitously, is to mark a mining claim. The prospector found what he wanted to claim, then made the cairn, and put a can with a note in it to 'stake his claim'. So unless someone put that there using an older can with a newer note, which is unlikely, it dated from like 1907 (earliest) to about 1950.'

Next call will be to the NFS.

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Bearproof
But now that I apparently qualify as a relic it kind of hurts, to be honest.

Inside every OD there's a YD screaming, "What the hell happened?"

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wherever
Going out of business sale!

Because the Glacier Point Hotel burned down in 1969, the great Sentinel Dome Dump will convert from trash to sacred artifacts in less than five years. This is your last chance to get in on the fun. Help yourself. There is plenty for all. Some photos can be found on the original link here: trash link

Here are a few more:







etc...

I e-mailed the park service, asking for a park historian to comment on this thread.

After the first round, I wrote:

OK. So you are saying that the Sentinel Dome Dump is about to become a permanent eyesore?

And he wrote back:

Hello again: The 50 year distinction does not mean the site will be preserved permanently. There are some additional considerations. The National Historic Preservation Act outlines a process for considering resources in projects that federal agencies undertake. In a nutshell, archeological sites are evaluated against a series of criteria to determine their eligibility for the National Register of Historic Places. That outcome is an important factor in how agencies manage resources.

That said, at the present time, I don't know of any plans to "clean up" the dump.

Hope this helps a bit. If you're in the park for the Facelift, please check out the archeology exhibit and handouts.

w/r to The Great Sentinel Dome Dump... been thru to Illilouette Ridge many times..
and it actually took us looking at your waypoint to find the darn dump. Checked it
out last weekend... once you know where it is you can follow the old road out to
the new road... along the way are other bits and pieces. Not sure I'd really do much..
although it wouldn't take much to just smooth things over.
Map o da old road to the dump:


There are other "dump" locations and stuff around the park that could be an eyesore.
Perhaps somewhat goofy... but I find the remnants of the old logging rails and cabling
interesting... and would prefer it be left as is... as a reminder of what has occurred...
Lots of cabling around... and old ties... and sometimes stuff like this:




Around Hetch Hetchy you can find remnants of the dam building. And sometimes you run
across stuff like this:

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Sterling China has been the long-time manufacturer/supplier (like since it opened I believe) of the distinctively-logoed china for the Ahwahnee, so it makes sense that they likely supplied the Glacier Point Hotel with their china as well, albeit in a more humdrum-looking plain cream color with two green stripes. Still neat to see, perhaps if you rooted around in there some more, you could come up with a couple of complete place settings!

I am not sentimental about garbage.

It is trash whether it's 50 years old or 5 minutes old. You would not -- hopefully -- throw a can on the trail today, so a can from yesteryear is no better.

Big difference between an artifact such as grinding hole VS some piece of trash that held food, tobacco, or god knows what.

I guess that I am not very interested in what sort of crap modern man smoked, ate, or shoveled food down his gullet with.

I never got over the disappointment of hiking up and down several thousand feet to a *destination* lake only to discover a 4ft tall monolith of trash by its shore.

Filth.

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The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2014 12:40AM by Bee.

Haul it out? Cover it up with rocks? Leave it be?



On same trip we came across another "Indian crop circle". I entered the circle and was enlightened.



(unfortunately after entering the circle I found myself crop dusted for the rest of the trip)

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Oh NO! Don't get me started on ROCK *FORMATIONS*!!!!! (BeeCause they are constructed of 'native' materials, ridding them becomes even more insidious)

Haul out, etc....I dunno -- the same q's were going through my mind when I saw the trash *monolith* at Warren Lake.

(What is that pile in the first picture??? Looks like we could sell some of it on eBay)

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The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2014 09:18AM by Bee.

Hey not all trash is created (or left behind) equally..check this out:
How Old is "Old"?

And this is not about OD btw

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Bearproof
Hey not all trash is created (or left behind) equally..check this out:
How Old is "Old"?

And this is not about OD btw

Hey, that is actually a purdy interesting article!

Meanwhile, if someone leaves OD in the park, does he qualify as an artifact????

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The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.

So now that I am done laughing at PineCone's post (so many easy replies but I won't go there) it's time to get back to Prince Albert.

I opened up the can on Wednesday morning and found this note


The tougher to read parts:
Lakeview Claim
This is the No W C (I assume means "this is the northwest corner"

Doing a bit more research on Mr. Richardson, I found the following...
RICHARDSON, ORPHA GUY -- Funeral services for Orpha Guy Richardson, 92, of Madera... Mr. Richardson, owner of a tavern named Guy's Place...
(Published April 12, 2001)

and this.

So it does, so far, appear that Mr. Richardson may have marked a corner of his claim with the can that we found.

Still waiting for a call back from NFS guys.

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Bearproof


Doing a bit more research on Mr. Richardson, I found the following...
RICHARDSON, ORPHA GUY -- Funeral services for Orpha Guy Richardson, 92, of Madera... Mr. Richardson, owner of a tavern named Guy's Place...
(Published April 12, 2001)

and this.

So it does, so far, appear that Mr. Richardson may have marked a corner of his claim with the can that we found.

Still waiting for a call back from NFS guys.

THAT is one cool document. Thanks for researching this.

Note the date of the claim: 8 / 2 / 78 and the date mentioned in the analysis (1979). So most likely this Prince Albert box and the note inside was less than 50 years old, hence, it was okay to remove it.


Also upthread someone mentioned trailer park trash, well, based on the address listed, Mr. Richardson did live in a trailer park:

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/336-E-Alluvial-Ave-SPC-133-Fresno-CA-93720/61498222_zpid/

Wait. What? It's OK to destroy a legal document because it's less that 50 years old? Doesn't this make you a claim jumper, or something?

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wherever
Wait. What? It's OK to destroy a legal document because it's less that 50 years old? Doesn't this make you a claim jumper, or something?

You would have a point if it was STILL a valid claim. I thought BP found it on land that is now designated wilderness, hence the claim has been nullified.

OTOH, if he picked it up in the NF where miners could still make valid claims then he could be in a bit of trouble.

.

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plawrence
OTOH, if he picked it up in the NF where miners could still make valid claims then he could be in a bit of trouble.
.

Just kidding. As far as I know, a cairn marker is just temporary, until a survey is done. Or something. You could get shot for moving someone's marker in the old days, but eventually a real claim gets permanently entered on a gov't map...

Maybe somebody here knows what the modern rules are.

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plawrence
You would have a point if it was STILL a valid claim. I thought BP found it on land that is now designated wilderness, hence the claim has been nullified.

The Ansel Adams Wilderness wasn't established until 1984, and this claim may have been outside the former, smaller Minarets Wilderness. If so it could be valid (it would have been grandfathered in), assuming it wasn't abandoned. If valid it would likely appear on the USFS visitor maps and be in the public records as either a claim or patented land.

My quick search turned up nothing, but I now know that the mine on the SHR along Lake Catherine's outlet was the "Bliss Prospect", and there was a second ("Pat #1" near the northern Twin Island Lake--these might explain the trail that heads up the North Fork of the San Joaquin: Mining Claims in the Minarets Wilderness

Sorry to interrupt your snark, but most of the arch guys are out in the field this time of the year, so don't be surprised if you have a significant delay until your call is returned. I know you think they sit around phones waiting for your call, but you might be surprised.

I'm surprised by the sentiment of those who take the position that they will only follow the laws that they have researched and make sense to them.

Doesn't seem the hallmark of a civilized society. I'd be surprised if citizens acted like that in Israel, where doing such things gets you killed.

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Ken M
I'm surprised by the sentiment of those who take the position that they will only follow the laws that they have researched and make sense to them.

Doesn't seem the hallmark of a civilized society. I'd be surprised if citizens acted like that in Israel, where doing such things gets you killed.

Just want to clarify something here:

I lived in Israel.

I served in the IDF(For a very short time -- got pneumonia)

Israel is a Democracy.(with a little Theocracy thrown in to muddle things)

Lawbreakers are treated with due process & a trial.

People usually get killed when they are killed purposefully (if you follow the news, I need not elaborate)

People are not killed for breaking the law (even though they sometimes should be) (like the nut-jobs who burned and killed a teenager....don't get me started)

Okay, Bee Out.

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The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2014 06:20PM by Bee.

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Ken M
Sorry to interrupt your snark, but most of the arch guys are out in the field this time of the year, so don't be surprised if you have a significant delay until your call is returned. I know you think they sit around phones waiting for your call, but you might be surprised.

I don't get where the snarky part is. Could you expand on this a bit?

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Old Dude

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mrcondron
I don't get where the snarky part is. Could you expand on this a bit?

Please don't. Take it off line, if you want to.

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Ken M
Sorry to interrupt your snark, but most of the arch guys are out in the field this time of the year, so don't be surprised if you have a significant delay until your call is returned. I know you think they sit around phones waiting for your call, but you might be surprised.

Well, um, sorry that you feel that this got snarky. Not sure exactly where. We do like to have and poke fun here and there, mostly at ourselves.

This was, and is, a serious post for me, and I think it got a good discussion going and certainly has educated me on the subject. And I would like to think a few others as well.

The only other time that I can think of coming across something like the Prince Albert can was a couple of years ago when I was a mentor on a week long trip with a group of inner city kids, actually not too far from where we found Prince Albert. We came across a dime sized obsidian flake in an area where there was no naturally occurring obsidian. The kids had no idea how it could have gotten there until we discussed the native peoples, the sources of obsidian, trading routes, etc. About a half dozen inner city kids suddenly thought that little piece of obsidian was about the coolest thing they had ever seen. And, of course, we left the flake near where we found it.

Last week when we saw the can in the field, just like the kids, I thought it was pretty cool. And Chick-on and I had a discussion when we found it about what, if anything, to do about it. And I decided to bring it out. I appreciate the historic nature of things. And I don’t appreciate trash in our wild lands. And even having read the CalFire article last week about historic artifacts, I am still troubled by the trash vs. history thing. Certainly if I found a trash dump of 50 plus year old stuff I would leave it. If I found a single old beer can rusting away that some knucklehead threw out 60 years ago, I frankly would be inclined to haul it out and toss it in the trash.

All that being said, I will wait patiently for the NFS folks to get back to me, I know that they must be busy trying to get as much field work done during the good weather as they can. And no doubt there are too few people covering too much territory. The Prince Albert can and note isn’t going anywhere in the meantime.

I would add that my archeologist buddy did mention to me (not included previously in my post) that the NFS people might make me return Prince Albert to where we found it. If that’s the case, so be it. It’s a beautiful pace, one I would be happy to go back to. And it would be even better if one of the NFS archeological folks would come with me…I would appreciate that and am sure it would be enlightening.

Found this about a month ago on a balloon in the park:

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chick-on
Found this about a month ago on a balloon in the park:

http://www.vvmf.org/Wall-of-Faces/32915/ROBERT-S-MASUDA

http://www.virtualwall.org/dm/MasudaRS01a.htm

Graduated from Camden High in San Jose.

RIP

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Bee
(What is that pile in the first picture??? Looks like we could sell some of it on eBay)

Nut shure it wort much... after few days getting drug round it really started to smell.

(hint: if you see "Alpine Aire" then maybe no hike so close...n setup shop furder away)

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chick-on
Haul it out? Cover it up with rocks? Leave it be?



On same trip we came across another "Indian crop circle". I entered the circle and was enlightened.



(unfortunately after entering the circle I found myself crop dusted for the rest of the trip)

How can you sleep downhill?

During Facelift a few years ago, I found this yellow cowboy buried in the dirt at Housekeeping Camp, and oddly enough, his corral in the dirt over at Lower Pines a day later (alas, his horse was nowhere to be seen). Now I'm wondering: might he be a historically significant artifact?
(edit: please no comments or questions about what exactly is he doing there with his left hand, as Mr. eeek runs a G-rated, family-friendly site here).





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2014 11:03AM by PineCone.

The 50 year thing coincides with Section 106 of the National Historic Preservation Act. Under the law, something has to be at least 50 years of age, meet one of four criteria, and have integrity for it to be considered 'historic'--eligible for the National Register. So not everything 50 years of age is historic necessarily, a lot if stuff is just old. However, the 50 years thing is a useful management tool to ensure potentially historic sites, structures, etc. are not disturbed.

I found an arrowhead......it was on private land......I am part of privately contracted land survey team......the land will soon be altered by large equipment...........this is not a significant archeological finding that would warrant a stop work order...........what am I supposed to do?

Inside park boundaries? If so can u throw me in the location?

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I haven't seen that one. I wonder if it's in the book. I have never been able to get a copy of it.

If you have been following this thread, you know that if it's over 50 years old, you need federal permission to mess with it. Which is fine with me, in this case. Otherwise people would be picking pieces off the engine in Airplane Gully.

http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,57381



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2014 08:05PM by wherever.

book?

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chick-on
book?

Aircraft Wrecks in the Mountains and Deserts of California
http://www.aircraftwrecks.com/book_dvd/3rdedition.htm
http://www.donrjordan.com/

Here is a quote from his book ad, about a 1945 wreck in the American River Canyon (on a route between air bases in Sacramento and Reno):

One wreck site in particular attracted my attention while we were doing research on another site near Truckee, California. Primarily because the wreckage has not been relocated after the original crash investigation was completed in June of 1945. It's possible the occasional deer hunter has stumbled upon the site, but as far as we know, the site had not been found and examined by an aviation archaeologist, despite three known attempts. Our team found, documented and photographed the site in the fall of 2000.

I refer to this site as "The Lovers Leap C-46A," because the aircraft came to rest across the canyon from a prominent local attraction high up on the north slope known as "Lover's Leap." This rocky outcropping has stood guard over the canyon for millenniums. It serves as a natural monument to the three airmen whose lives were cut short when their C-46A exploded and fell burning from the sky above.

He's not talking about Lovers Leap that I know on the South Fork, but rather the one on the North Fork that Thomas Moran painted in 1876. Approach is by the Green Valley Trail, I guess.

Most trash is within day hiking distance of trailheads. And far more if a lake with fish is an easy destination.I often ventures off trails even if not for the purpose of cross country travel, for instance looking for wildflowers. Will relate that there is a lot more trash than it appears from on trails because most has been tossed an arms toss into spots one cannot easily see like clumps of brush. The one thing I pack out are mylar balloons. As an old guy who's been out there 4 decades, must have the largest collection (hundreds) recovered from mountains although the last few years have not been picking up all that I see. Ever see some urban event where they tie up dozens of those helium balloons into a super group? Well I found one on the mid lake peninsula jutting out into Marie Lake. Quite weighty addition to my pack. Some day will exhibit them as a side show to one of my photography exhibits as a reflection of all the travel I've done off trail where others have not.

David

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http://www.davidsenesac.com

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DavidSenesac
Most trash is within day hiking distance of trailheads. And far more if a lake with fish is an easy destination.I often ventures off trails even if not for the purpose of cross country travel, for instance looking for wildflowers. Will relate that there is a lot more trash than it appears from on trails because most has been tossed an arms toss into spots one cannot easily see like clumps of brush. The one thing I pack out are mylar balloons. As an old guy who's been out there 4 decades, must have the largest collection (hundreds) recovered from mountains although the last few years have not been picking up all that I see. Ever see some urban event where they tie up dozens of those helium balloons into a super group? Well I found one on the mid lake peninsula jutting out into Marie Lake. Quite weighty addition to my pack. Some day will exhibit them as a side show to one of my photography exhibits as a reflection of all the travel I've done off trail where others have not.

David

You ought to make a still life photograph of those you found within Yosemite National Park, then submit the photograph to the annual Yosemite Renaissance art show. The deadline for the 2015 show is November 15, 2014.

http://www.yosemiterenaissance.org/yr30prospectus.html


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