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Tenaya Lake, Yosemite National Park


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Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,

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I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 09:26AM
this was just crazy. Before the event I will shortly discuss, I thought the craziest thing I had seen in Yosemite was someone pushing a baby stroller up the mist trail, not the paved part but up the 500 steps. So, July 4 on Tioga road between Tuolomne Meadows and Tenaya Lake there are a few roadside water falls. Here where it begins. Pulled over on the side of the road is one of those rental R.V.'S. Now there is no shoulder parking in this area so the guy just thinks he can park with half of his R.V. parked on Tioga road. His kids are out in there bathing suits playing in the falls right there on the road. Traffic is backed-up and others are pulling over to join in. Maybe some "No Parking at any time" signs need to put up in these locations. Well just my 2 cents. Thanks for listening.Pounding head on desk
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 09:57AM
More preferable would be an I.Q. test for drivers before entry into the park is permitted.

Morons like the one described above would be required to use public transportation, forbidden from riding a bicycle, and allowed to walk only when accompanied and supervised by a responsible person.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 07:40AM
At the very least, PLEASE...a driving test before tourons can rent an RV. Some of these people cannot even drive a passenger vehicle very well...
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 11:26AM
Quote
hikerchick395
At the very least, PLEASE...a driving test before tourons can rent an RV. Some of these people cannot even drive a passenger vehicle very well...

Since so many RVs are as big as a bus (or bigger) these days shouldn't a class 2 license be required to drive them?
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 11:29AM
Quote
eeek
Since so many RVs are as big as a bus (or bigger) these days shouldn't a class 2 license be required to drive them?

Actually if the GVWR is over some amount (not sure what it is) you do have to get an additional "endorsement" on your license in CA.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 10:39AM
This has always been an issue I see all the time. Some situations it becomes epidemic especially in national parks, for instance when a wild animal like a bear is spotted. After one vehicle stops right in a road others with little common sense see that and do likewise as though it must be ok. Same thing happens in urban areas during special events with big crowds. One car parks in an obvious signed NO PARKING zone and one can readily predict a few others with half a brain will join them.

It is not only large RVs that are an issue. Those with passenger cars often can be see stopping alongside roads where their vehicle sticks out into traffic. Three weeks ago, the day SR120 opened through Tioga Pass, numbers of cars were stopping at the South Fork of the Tuolumne River crossing to look at the cascade. There is a large pullout on the eastbound lane and it was busy. Some bozo with a family going west stopped just beyond the bridge where there is little space for a car with about 1/3 his vehicle width sticking out in the road. They got out with cameras, kids running around, like it was ok.

Part of the problem is that the DMV, Caltrans, and other county road departments, do little if anything to educate the public on what is legal when parking along roads. The usual criteria in non-paved pullouts on rural highways is to park with tires fully off pavement. If a roadside doesn't allow that given a vehicle size then do not park there even if that means driving further along a road to a wider location. The issue of parking along rural roads becomes a bit less restrictive when a road is a small two lane secondary road with little traffic, especially in residential zones.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2011 10:40AM by DavidSenesac.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 11:41AM
I have to agree with David on the Bear issue. Man, if anyone in a car sees a Bear, they stop right in the middle of the road like no one else matters. People will inconveience a hundred other people just to convenience themselves.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 08, 2011 01:28AM
Quote
DavidSenesac
It is not only large RVs that are an issue. Those with passenger cars often can be see stopping alongside roads where their vehicle sticks out into traffic. Three weeks ago, the day SR120 opened through Tioga Pass, numbers of cars were stopping at the South Fork of the Tuolumne River crossing to look at the cascade. There is a large pullout on the eastbound lane and it was busy. Some bozo with a family going west stopped just beyond the bridge where there is little space for a car with about 1/3 his vehicle width sticking out in the road. They got out with cameras, kids running around, like it was ok.

Actually the Law Enforcement Rangers in Yosemite are pretty good and vigilant in ticketing these bozos when they park illegally like that. The problem is that they can't be everywhere all the time. But when they do come across an illegally parked vehicle, it's a pretty good bet that the driver of that vehicle will receive a citation.

I've seen this in action in February when a lot of people try to park near the Horsetail Falls viewing spots along Northside and Southside Drives. After the light show is over, those who had parked illegally will most likely find a nice parking citation placed on their windshield courtesy of the rangers.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 11:19AM
I lived in the San Bernardino mountains for 2 years and whenver it would snow, the flat landers would come up in droves. Stopping in the highway, parking wherever they wanted, just making a mess of things. Some people really have no clue how to behave, and they think everyone else should accommodate them.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 12:27PM
Quote
hotrod4x5
I lived in the San Bernardino mountains for 2 years and whenver it would snow, the flat landers would come up in droves. Stopping in the highway, parking wherever they wanted, just making a mess of things. Some people really have no clue how to behave, and they think everyone else should accommodate them.

Mt. Baldy Road has the same problem. Especially if the snow is on a weekend.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 12:23PM
I'm a bit confused. I thought people were in the National Parks to see things like Bears. Why wouldn't someone want to stop for a few moments if they see a Bear? On the one hand we can't complain when people drive like mad men and zip through the park but on the other hand stop and enjoy the views when there is something unique to see? I fully agree that you shouldn't use the road as a rest stop for recreation as described above but I can't possibly see how the bear scenario falls into the same category.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2011 12:31PM by York.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 12:32PM
Quote
York
I'm a bit confused. I thought people were in the National Parks to see things like Bears. Why wouldn't someone want to stop for a few moments if they see a Bear? On the one hand we can't complain when people drive like mad men and zip through the park but on the other hand stop and enjoy the views when there is something unique to see? I fully agree that you shouldn't use the road and a rest stop for recreation and described above but I can't possibly see how the bear scenario falls into the same category.


Re-read the post:
the objection is to using the traffic lanes of the roadway as a parking lot (not to pulling off to observe the wildlife).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2011 12:33PM by szalkowski.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 12:33PM
Quote
York
I'm a bit confused. I thought people were in the National Parks to see things like Bears. Why wouldn't someone want to stop for a few moments if they see a Bear?

Because you (and the 20+ cars that stop with you) are blocking the road. It is also illegal (traffic violation). If you cannot pull completely (and legally) off the road, don't stop. It creates a traffic hazard and is dangerous. Not to mention you are in the way of others.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 07:07PM
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York
I'm a bit confused. I thought people were in the National Parks to see things like Bears. Why wouldn't someone want to stop for a few moments if they see a Bear?
Because it is extremely rude, and dangerous, to block the road.
Quote

On the one hand we can't complain when people drive like mad men and zip through the park but on the other hand stop and enjoy the views when there is something unique to see? I fully agree that you shouldn't use the road as a rest stop for recreation as described above but I can't possibly see how the bear scenario falls into the same category.
Just because a person wants to look at a bear does not give them the right to force others to stop too. I have seen a bear jam take 5 minutes to get moving to make way for an ambulance on an emergency run - and the gawkers were upset they had to move! Another time a sow and her cubs were separated by a bear jam and one cub ran though the cars and was stuck, and killed.

It's fine to look at the bears. Just pull ALL THE WAY OFF THE ROAD.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 12:49PM
I'm not trying to be obstinate but I read the posts. Why treat the roads in Yosemite like normal roadways? I thought the whole point of lower speed limits and general caution for wildlife etc. is so that people can enjoy the views and certainly stop or slow down when there is something unique to see. Yes you are blocking the road. But it shouldn't be dangerous if people are obeying the speed rules and generally paying attention. And yes it creates a temporary traffic issue but I wouldn't call it a hazard. But you are blocking the road for the whole purpose of being there in the first place---enjoyment of the National Park. The roads are not simply a thorougfare--they are part of the attraction. I've never heard of anyone getting a citation for stopping to see a Bear. In fact, I see Rangers and other NP Personnel also stop in the road and view wildlife---again that is the whole point of being there. Even the shuttle buses will stop in the middle of the road if there is something unique to see. They do this so passengers can enjoy the view and take pictures.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 01:06PM
I don't think you are being obstinate but I do think your viewpoint is naive - The issue here is common courtesy - In the examples above, people were parked in the middle of the road and going swimming - This is not even a short temporary stop to see something of interest - I would hope that buses, if they stop in the middle of the road at all would keep it very short - Rangers are required to observe wildlife and make sure no park guests are bothering them - I would venture to guess that they park on the side of the road and rarely park in the middle unless cars are already blocking the way and there is no way they can pull over.

What this all comes down to is common courtesy - Pull over and take your pictures - Blocking the road is rude, inconsiderate and avoidable
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 01:12PM
Quote
York
I'm not trying to be obstinate but I read the posts. Why treat the roads in Yosemite like normal roadways?


Because they ARE normal roadways.
Most of the milage along them is on state highways (SR41, SR120, and SR140).

The DMV's California Driver Handbook is available via this link:
http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/pubs.htm



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2011 01:24PM by szalkowski.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 07:15PM
Quote
York
I'm not trying to be obstinate but I read the posts. Why treat the roads in Yosemite like normal roadways?
Because they are.
Quote

I thought the whole point of lower speed limits and general caution for wildlife etc. is so that people can enjoy the views and certainly stop or slow down when there is something unique to see.
You thought wrong. The lower speed limits are BECAUSE everyone is looking and not paying attention to the road. The lower speed limits are for the animals safety, not yours. Last year 28 bears were reported hit and 7 confirmed killed. Many run off, injured, only to die later of those injuries.
Quote

Yes you are blocking the road......
As much as you try, there is no excuse for such rude and dangerous behavior.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 01:25PM
Again, I want to make sure I am explaining myself correctly. I agree with the first post but follow-up posts expanded the scenario and overstepped the setting of common courtesy. Obviously, parking on the road to go and enjoy recreation is not intended. But I have confirmed with rangers that it is expected people may at times stop on the road to view unique sites including wildlife. National Parks from Great Smoky Mountains at Cades Cove, to Yellowstone to Yosemite all have this same expectation. The expectation is that drivers should expect delays because of wildlife sightings. They should drive with caution. Those stopping should attempt to pull off the road but that is not always fully possible. I've often seen where the traffic blockage causes one lane only and people have to take turns. In almost all cases, everyone is reasonable, accomodating and generally enjoying themselves and the experience even with the traffic delay. Scenarios like Buffalo parading down the middle of the road in Yellowstone are common and backs up hundreds of cars. But that is the whole point of being in the National Park. Slow down, stop if necessary and enjoy where you are at. I know many of you are generally National Park advocates so that is what causes my confusion on the dichotomy in what is considered "common sense".
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 01:51PM
Quote
York
Again, I want to make sure I am explaining myself correctly. I agree with the first post but follow-up posts expanded the scenario and overstepped the setting of common courtesy. Obviously, parking on the road to go and enjoy recreation is not intended. But I have confirmed with rangers that it is expected people may at times stop on the road to view unique sites including wildlife. National Parks from Great Smoky Mountains at Cades Cove, to Yellowstone to Yosemite all have this same expectation. The expectation is that drivers should expect delays because of wildlife sightings. They should drive with caution. Those stopping should attempt to pull off the road but that is not always fully possible. I've often seen where the traffic blockage causes one lane only and people have to take turns. In almost all cases, everyone is reasonable, accomodating and generally enjoying themselves and the experience even with the traffic delay. Scenarios like Buffalo parading down the middle of the road in Yellowstone are common and backs up hundreds of cars. But that is the whole point of being in the National Park. Slow down, stop if necessary and enjoy where you are at. I know many of you are generally National Park advocates so that is what causes my confusion on the dichotomy in what is considered "common sense".


I'm certain that the rangers expect idiots to stop in the middle of the road and create traffic hazards, but sincerely doubt that they advocate or condon it. (On the other hand, one is expected to yield the right-of-way for bison and other animals when they are in the roadway.)

If it is not possible to fully pull off the road, one should not stop at that location.


[Stay tuned for the reply in the next episode/posting of "Channeling Ronald Reagan."]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2011 01:56PM by szalkowski.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 01:52PM
This sort of thing happens in just about every park. In some spots it is more dangerous than others obviously. Highway 190 through Death Valley, which is a high speed road, comes to mind. There is nothing that clears up jet lag or hiking fatigue faster than driving at 60 mph behind a tourist who suddenly decides to slam on his brakes to point out a sand dune to his wife or dealing with the drivers who like to dart from the highway shoulder without checking to see if any cars are coming. Common courtesy and common sense dictate that signaling and pulling completely off the road is the best practice, though I will admit to stopping behind others who have blocked traffic and leaving my car idling to grab photos on occasion. I've just learned to expect a certain amount of stupidity on park roads and tried to adjust temperament accordingly. Some driving practices are so egregious though, it really makes you wonder what driving test these people took.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 01:45PM
Well, not everyone visits Yosemite National Park to see a bear walking along the side of the road. Some people visit the park in order to camp or backpack or hike. Sometimes people want to do those things, but have limited time to do them. I don't think it's fair for a driver to take it on himself to decide how others should enjoy the park, but that's what people effectively do when they slow down in the middle of the road to look at wildlife. Most of the main roads in Yosemite are state highways. The rules that govern highways outside of the park also apply inside the park. Also, some people are not even in Yosemite to be in Yosemite. Some people are in Yosemite because CA-120 is the fastest way to the East side. I just don't think it's right for one person (the driver who stops to see a bear) to decide how everyone else behind him or her should enjoy the park.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 07:16PM
I wholeheartedly agree. I go to the park to backpack and just because someone sees a deer or a bear on the side of the road, it doesn't give them the right to stop in the middle of the road to take pictures or chase the wildlife on foot. Many times I'll leave right after work, and the difference of 20 minutes from some idiot stopped in the middle of the road causing a backup, is the difference of another mile in before dark on the trail. Its not a gray area at all, since it is the law on State Routes in California that stopping in the middle of the road is illegal. Also, I highly doubt that rangers are "condoning" stopping in the middle of the road. If that was the case, I doubt they would have all those signs up prohibiting that behavior.

As for the knock on RVs, I don't really agree with that. If an RV is the way people choose to enjoy the National Park, so be it and best of luck to them. I don't think that necessarily makes them the bad guys. As long as when they are going slow, they make use of the turn offs to let faster traffic pass them, I have no issues with them.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 02:18PM
Szalowski-----I'm not quite sure on the channeling Reagan reference or what that means but methinks you have a skewed view of ranger expectations. I just talked to a ranger to confirm my general experience at parks all over the country. Yes many drivers are idiots. But usually they are the ones that are in a hurry and don't understand that they are in a National Park and should drive accordingly. Drivers blocking the road to take a picture of a bear are the least of rangers concerns. They expect stopping and do condone it. Like I said, even the Yosemite owned Shuttle Bus drivers will do this. Now one shouldn't stop where a reasonable driver can't avoid you such as around a corner and I understand that some drivers simply are clueless but again I am more concerned about the drivers who are in a hurry than the ones who are slowing down and enjoying the experience. And my discussions with Rangers confirm they share my view.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 02:19PM
Quote
York
And my discussions with Rangers confirm they share my view.

So you claim. But we can't hear those discussions and, frankly, I doubt the rangers said what you think they said.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 02:32PM
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eeek
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York
And my discussions with Rangers confirm they share my view.

So you claim. But we can't hear those discussions and, frankly, I doubt the rangers said what you think they said.

Please don't take my word for it if you doubt this. First look at any of the general literature regarding the mission of the National Parks. Secondly review any information regarding driving in the Parks. Alternatively simply pose the question to a ranger--are you more concerned about the drivers who are in a hurry or drivers who are slowing down (and even stopping!) and enjoying the experience?
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 03:05PM
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York
Quote
eeek
Quote
York
And my discussions with Rangers confirm they share my view.

So you claim. But we can't hear those discussions and, frankly, I doubt the rangers said what you think they said.

Please don't take my word for it if you doubt this. First look at any of the general literature regarding the mission of the National Parks. Secondly review any information regarding driving in the Parks. Alternatively simply pose the question to a ranger--are you more concerned about the drivers who are in a hurry or drivers who are slowing down (and even stopping!) and enjoying the experience?

I've been to Yellowstone. Even saw a bear there. It was a typical situation where people were slowing down to watch and a few drivers even parked and left their vehicles, which were blocking part of the roadway.

I was there. There was a park volunteer and law enforcement ranger directing traffic and warning people not to block the roadway. I saw the LE ranger with his ticket book. He was actually encouraging people to watch, but loudly warning that unattended vehicles that weren't in a parking space or completely off the road would be ticketed.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 08, 2011 06:14PM
Quote
y_p_w

I've been to Yellowstone. Even saw a bear there. It was a typical situation where people were slowing down to watch and a few drivers even parked and left their vehicles, which were blocking part of the roadway.

I was there. There was a park volunteer and law enforcement ranger directing traffic and warning people not to block the roadway. I saw the LE ranger with his ticket book. He was actually encouraging people to watch, but loudly warning that unattended vehicles that weren't in a parking space or completely off the road would be ticketed.

Yellowstone jams seem to have become legendary this year. There now seems to be a cadre of "ranger assistants" in white PT cruisers that help out somewhat. When both lanes of traffic are blocked, with only one ranger, that individual is often running back and forth between misbehaving motorists at both ends of the bear/elk/moose/bison/squirrel jam.

In a bizarre twist, I have recently seen twice some misguided motorists trying to pass across a double yellow line around stopped cars and finding that they cannot proceed or back up-- resulting in a double lane gridlock.



The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of ideas.
-- Carl Sagan
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 03:34PM
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York
Quote
eeek
Quote
York
And my discussions with Rangers confirm they share my view.

So you claim. But we can't hear those discussions and, frankly, I doubt the rangers said what you think they said.

Please don't take my word for it if you doubt this. First look at any of the general literature regarding the mission of the National Parks. Secondly review any information regarding driving in the Parks. Alternatively simply pose the question to a ranger--are you more concerned about the drivers who are in a hurry or drivers who are slowing down (and even stopping!) and enjoying the experience?

We aren't talking about slowing down or stopping. You are trying to justify stopping in the road to view something and I doubt any ranger will condone such obnoxious behavior.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 02:33PM
Stopping for a few seconds on the valley loop road is one thing. Stopping for several minutes (or longer) on other roads in Yosemite is quite another.

There is a spot in Yosemite that the rangers are trying to get everyone to not stop. They keep putting out more and more cones to keep people from stopping. Unfortunately, it doesn't work. The morons still stop. But, they (the rangers) don't want anyone to stop.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 07:18PM
Quote
York
...And my discussions with Rangers confirm they share my view.
It wasn't any Yosemite park ranger you spoke to. The ones I know do not condone parking in the middle of the road and blocking traffic.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 03:19PM
I don't think we are in disagreement. The ranger in your situation at Yellowstone wasn't there to make sure the "normal" flow of traffic would go unimpeded. He was there to keep general order and assist drivers and passengers in experiencing one of the great benefits of the Park. In similar situations I have seen the Ranger stop traffic to allow parked vehicles to exit as part of his "directing traffic" process. Again the goal isn't to allow drivers to speed unimpeded through the park. The goal is for everyone to enjoy the park and take their time.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 03:37PM
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York
I don't think we are in disagreement. The ranger in your situation at Yellowstone wasn't there to make sure the "normal" flow of traffic would go unimpeded. He was there to keep general order and assist drivers and passengers in experiencing one of the great benefits of the Park. In similar situations I have seen the Ranger stop traffic to allow parked vehicles to exit as part of his "directing traffic" process. Again the goal isn't to allow drivers to speed unimpeded through the park. The goal is for everyone to enjoy the park and take their time.

Take your time does not equal stopping wherever you darn well please.

Rangers will ticket you for traffic violations. Stopping in the middle of the road - is - in fact - a TRAFFIC VIOLATION. You will get a ticket if a ranger finds you blocking traffic. Those tickets are #$%^ expensive, and people who stop in the middle of the road and cause a long traffic jam deserve every penny of it.

Rangers EXPECT to ticket people for their behavior, you can bet your sweet bippy. Fer Sure. Take a dog on the trail - get thrown out of the park and fined. Let a bear get your food - get fined A LOT MORE. Speeding and unlawful parking?? oooooo yeah, here's your fine. As much time as I've spent there I've seen a lot of that happen....

Since the speed limit is generally a whopping 35 mph I very much doubt anyone thinks speeding is acceptable. What is expected is that you follow the law. Don't stop in the friggin' roadway. Pull off. Get your car out of the lane completely. If you can't do that - DRIVE FORWARD. It's what you are supposed to do.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 04:01PM
My only guess is your strong reactions to this come from being so jaded with overcrowding and "tourists" at Yosemite. Unfortunately it also seems this irritation has created quite a bit of impatience. Impatience usually leads to speeding through or trying to zip around people who are trying to enjoy the park and the reason it is there. But many of you are lumping together behaviors that simply don't have anything to do with one another. It is unreasonable to think that there will never be stopping in roadways inside a National Park for things such as bear sightings, wildlife, etc.. It is ludricous, unreasonable and obnoxious to believe that you ALWAYS should have an unimpeded thoroughfare through National Park roads. The premise goes against everything the National Parks stand for. The Rangers will never enforce what some of you are suggesting. In fact, as noted above in the Yellowstone scenario, they will encourage and assist the drivers and passengers to enjoy the event. When they are operating vehicles they will also at times stop in the roadway to view the event or in the case of vehicles with passengers allow them to obtain pictures.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 04:14PM
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York
My only guess is your strong reactions to this come from being so jaded with overcrowding and "tourists" at Yosemite. Unfortunately it also seems this irritation has created quite a bit of impatience. Impatience usually leads to speeding through or trying to zip around people who are trying to enjoy the park and the reason it is there. But many of you are lumping together behaviors that simply don't have anything to do with one another. It is unreasonable to think that there will never be stopping in roadways inside a National Park for things such as bear sightings, wildlife, etc.. It is ludricous, unreasonable and obnoxious to believe that you ALWAYS should have an unimpeded thoroughfare through National Park roads. The premise goes against everything the National Parks stand for. The Rangers will never enforce what some of you are suggesting. In fact, as noted above in the Yellowstone scenario, they will encourage and assist the drivers and passengers to enjoy the event. When they are operating vehicles they will also at times stop in the roadway to view the event or in the case of vehicles with passengers allow them to obtain pictures.

But they won't let drivers stop on the road surface and leave their vehicles. This is essentially what happened with the initial post.

Of course people will slow down and sometimes even stop for a few seconds. However, it's unacceptable to get out of the vehicle to view wildlife until the vehicle is no longer blocking the roadway. There are things that happen. Emergency vehicles sometimes need to get through, and it's not OK to leave a vehicle unattended that way. There will be bear jams, but accommodating people leaving their unattended vehicles on the roadway is clearly not allowed.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 04:33PM
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York
But many of you are lumping together behaviors that simply don't have anything to do with one another. It is unreasonable to think that there will never be stopping in roadways inside a National Park for things such as bear sightings, wildlife, etc.. It is ludricous, unreasonable and obnoxious to believe that you ALWAYS should have an unimpeded thoroughfare through National Park roads. The premise goes against everything the National Parks stand for.

IT IS AGAINST THE LAW TO PARK IN THE ROAD.

This is not a gray area.

This is not obnoxious.

It simply is.

Ludicrous is expecting to always get away with it simply because it's a park.

It is a SAFETY ISSUE. Emergency vehicles NEED unimpeded access to all parts of the park.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2011 04:34PM by AlmostThere.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 06:08PM
It is ludricous, unreasonable, obnoxious and arrogant to believe that you can behave in a manner that ignores traffic laws, safety concerns, and common courtesy to others.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 04:11PM
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 04:55PM
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 05:01PM
Now, now. Some of us that drive RVs know better... tongue sticking out smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2011 05:01PM by Hitech.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 05:10PM
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Hitech
Now, now. Some of us that drive RVs know better... tongue sticking out smiley

Actually a lot do. But it just takes one to mess things up.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 08, 2011 02:06AM
It's been my experience that RV drivers, including those who are only renting RVs, are not any worse than drivers of other vehicles within a National Park. In fact, it's been my experience that RV drivers as a whole, including those who are just renting one, are far more likely to pull off into a pullout to let other drivers pass them in a safe manner than people driving other types of vehicles.

For whatever reason, it's been my experience that those driving any type of minivans are the worst in this regard, followed by drivers of Subaru Outbacks (of all vehicles) in that they are the least likely to pull over even if there are five or more vehicles stuck behind them.

(Note: the majority of Subaru Outback drivers are not the problem because the majority of them (in my experience) do drive at (or near) the posted speed limit within Yosemite, so they are not impeding traffic. But those that don't, the ones that insist on driving 5, 10, even 15 MPH below the posted speed limit -- just forget about them pulling over to let you (and other vehicles) pass, because 95% of the time they won't.)
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 08, 2011 01:11PM
Quote
plawrence
It's been my experience that RV drivers, including those who are only renting RVs, are not any worse than drivers of other vehicles within a National Park. In fact, it's been my experience that RV drivers as a whole, including those who are just renting one, are far more likely to pull off into a pullout to let other drivers pass them in a safe manner than people driving other types of vehicles.

Yes, but all too often I see RV drivers that have no idea how wide they actually are. That line in the center of the road is there for a reason.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 05:24PM
LOL Head roll These companies have an "in" with the reservation system (legal of illegal) and I fully agree. The french seem to loooove R.V. America.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 06, 2011 10:32PM
One place along SR120 where I regularly see vehicles failing to park fully off the pavement thus sticking out in traffic is in Tuolumne Meadows about the Cathedral Lakes Trailhead. A section with lots of parked cars. It isn't like drivers haven't a choice due to limited spots but rather they are too lazy to park further west along the highway where there are always wide open spots and one will need to walk a trivial distance along the road to the trailhead. Such is especially dangerous when one of those humungous RV's are passing through while other vehicles are moving past in the opposite lane. Any vehicle sticking out into the pavement is likely to cause the RV to have to stop until the line of vehicles in the opposite lane all pass by. Midday weekends that could be a long time. In the mean time, drivers in the vehicles behind the RV are likely to be fuming. Now what the park rangers ought to be doing is aggressively ticketing any cars that do so in order to send a message to such drivers. So if any enforcement personnel are lurking here, please do something to reduce such inconsiderate behavior.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/06/2011 10:38PM by DavidSenesac.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 07:17AM
I've been in a whole lot of different national parks everywhere ... and in Yosemite's defense, I would say the offerings of pull-outs for vehicles along scenic roads is quite generous, I think.

... compared to many other places I've been

I know visitors will want to stop dead on a dime right then and there, if they suddenly see Bigfoot humping a buffalo right off to the left ... but honestly, YNP has ample stop n' look pulls here and there ...
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 07:48AM
Quote
Anvanho
I know visitors will want to stop dead on a dime right then and there, if they suddenly see Bigfoot humping a buffalo right off to the left ... but honestly, YNP has ample stop n' look pulls here and there ...

See that is the type of "unique" event that "of course" visitors are going to stop for. All of this rancor for "common sense" and "considerate behavior" totally lacks common sense. Yes the ideal is to pull all the way off the road. But sometimes that is NOT going to happen and all of us visiting the parks need to deal with it. The Rangers will never enforce the zero-tolerance policy expressed by some here. That doesn't fit the mission of the National Parks. And the attitude that anything different than this zero tolerance for stopping in "inconsiderate" "obnoxious" "rude" etc. is also flipping the issue upside down. If you are in a National Park and you don't want these occasional delays you really should just go find some place else to go. I regret the callousness I see because I know some of you are heavy users of the parks but I sense an entitlement that since you are a frequent user you have the right to an unimpeded, non-delayed expressway to your trailhead for a backpacking hike. Common courtesy extends both ways on these issues.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 08:21AM
Quote
York
All of this rancor for "common sense" and "considerate behavior" totally lacks common sense.
Indeed?

You seem to be the sole dissenting opinion. So which is the "common" sense here? Yours or all the others?

And if someone blocks a road with his car in a national park to smell the flowers and causes a hazard for other vehicles, he's exercising common sense or indulging in his right as endowed by the "mission" of the parks?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2011 08:26AM by GVlog.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 08:55AM
Quote
GVlog
Quote
York
All of this rancor for "common sense" and "considerate behavior" totally lacks common sense.
Indeed?

You seem to be the sole dissenting opinion. So which is the "common" sense here? Yours or all the others?

Only dissenting opinion? Really? The common experience is that people stop and slow down for something unique. Rangers stop. Shuttle Buses stop. Cars stop. And yes, even the hated RVs. By the way, the Ranger I spoke with about the issue was at SEKI. No this doesn't mean that the majority is always right and it also doesn't excuse other behavior referred to in this post including the original post. But mixing all these behaviors into one item and having the attitude that everyone better stay out of my way because I might be late for my hike most decidedly is not common sense.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 09:04AM
Quote
York
The common experience is that people stop and slow down for something unique.

If you use the turnouts as specified by the traffic regulations, it's a non-issue. How many other vehicles are backed up for those who are exercising their "common sense", stopping with their vehicles extending into the roadway, and blocking the road? Are you defending this behaviour?

I wasn't inclined to join this discussion but I felt I had to chime in to let you know that there are more of us who do not like this sort of practice. Enjoy the parks and DO IT RESPONSIBLY.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 08, 2011 02:21AM
Quote
York
[By the way, the Ranger I spoke with about the issue was at SEKI.

Well that might explain that ranger's perspective since SEKI (especially Kings Canyon NP) is a lightly visited park compared to Yosemite or Yellowstone. One can stop on the road in Sequoia not have any vehicle catch up to you for a good three or four minutes (if not longer). That's not the case in Yosemite, whose roads handle a lot more traffic than the roads through Sequoia and Kings Canyon.

In a crowded park like Yosemite, one needs to more closely adhere to the Park's rules and regulations (including traffic laws) to help keep the park experience pleasant for everyone. Stopping in the middle of the road for any length of time when there's traffic backed up behind you is very counterproductive in this regard. And I know of no Yosemite ranger that condones that practice. None. That they have to deal with it on a daily basis, especially during the summer tourist season, doesn't mean that they approve of it, because they don't.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 08, 2011 03:53PM
Quote
York
Quote
GVlog
Quote
York
All of this rancor for "common sense" and "considerate behavior" totally lacks common sense.
Indeed?

You seem to be the sole dissenting opinion. So which is the "common" sense here? Yours or all the others?

Only dissenting opinion? Really? The common experience is that people stop and slow down for something unique. Rangers stop. Shuttle Buses stop. Cars stop. And yes, even the hated RVs. By the way, the Ranger I spoke with about the issue was at SEKI. No this doesn't mean that the majority is always right and it also doesn't excuse other behavior referred to in this post including the original post. But mixing all these behaviors into one item and having the attitude that everyone better stay out of my way because I might be late for my hike most decidedly is not common sense.

Stop restating your indefensible position. Illegally parking in the road is the bottom line - rangers will stop YOU from stopping with a big fat ticket. It's not the majority, it's the LAW. In addition to the LAW that says don't stop in the road, there is also a LAW that says when you are going so slowly that more than 5 vehicles are lined up behind you, you are to PULL OFF THE ROAD TO LET THEM GO BY.

This has nothing to do with anyone's expectations of "rushing to the trailhead" at the LUDICROUS SPEED of 35 miles per hour. OMG, hurry up and get out of my way so I can go slow!

In my day, trolls actually did more than repeat themselves. You could at least strive for some amusing posts once in a while instead of being monotously wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2011 04:01PM by AlmostThere.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 08:25AM
Below are the traffic regulations from the national park website - It says explicitly that you should use turnouts to pull COMPLETELY out of the road to take photos, consult the park map or simply enjoy the parks scenery AND WILDLIFE - Does not make any provision to just slow to a stop in the middle of the road to enjoy the Park. In fact, the mere mention of requiring turnouts is indicative that stopping in the middle of the road can be dangerous

Traffic safety
Traveling through Yosemite by car, bus, or bicycle provides a wonderful opportunity to slow down and enjoy the park ’s incredible scenery. When traveling on park roads you can protect yourself, other visitors, and park wildlife by observing the following simple rules:

•Yosemite’s roads are used by both visitors and park wildlife. Please obey posted speed limits. Speeding kills bears & other wildlife!
•Use turnouts to pull completely out of the road to take photos, consult the park map, or simply enjoy the park’s scenery and wildlife.
•Wear seatbelts and use child safety seats required for children under six years of age or under 60 pounds in weight.
•All motorcyclists must wear helmets.
•Stay alive, don’t drink and drive. For your safety, park rangers enforce laws against alcohol and drug relateddriving offenses.
•Use tire chains when posted as being required (during snowy or icy periods).

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/yoursafety.htm

.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 09:05AM
Thank you for spelling it out for York.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 10:23AM
While I understand what york is saying (and to be honest I think most people on this site are more into hiking/camping than sight seeing), I, as most people, do have issues with drivers ignoring those around them. I remember my first time in Yellowstone--I wanted to stop to see the buffaloes (much as York has commented about seeing wildlife); by the 3rd day the buffaloes began to annoy me (well, other other drivers who would stop and take pictures). While rangers may not ticket you, we still have an obligation to be courteous and respectful to others and make every attempt to create a safe enviroment for animals, pedestrians, and other drivers.

As SoCal notes for Yosemite, here is guidance at Yellowstone (which can and should be applied at every local, state and national park):

During the main tourist season (mid Jun - mid Sep) the roads are crowded. There will be times that wildlife will be on the road, they have the right of way. There will also be what is known as buffalo jams, elk jams, bear jams and wolf jams. You cannot stop and park your vehicle in the middle of the road to take pictures or watch. You have to pull completely off the roadway so you are not blocking traffic. Utilize pullouts, parking areas, and/or road shoulders if available.

And from the Yellowstone Association Institute:

Use pull-outs! When viewing wildlife from or near your car, pull off of the road completely so you do not block traffic. Park regulations require you to pull off the roadway past the outside white line to prevent traffic hazards, traffic jams, and allow other vehicles to pass safely.

Use pull-outs when available, but avoid creating new pull-outs by parking on vegetation or in wet or otherwise sensitive areas. If a place to pull off is not available, move on and use the next available spot.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 08, 2011 02:30AM
Those regulations are simply common sense for the safety of the wildlife and the safety of people. That people refuse to adhere to them just boggles my mind. And at Yellowstone the problem of people blocking the road if far, far worse than it is in Yosemite, simply because Yellowstone has far more wildlife (of the large size variety) roaming around through the park compared to Yosemite.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 07:39PM
Quote
York
See that is the type of "unique" event that "of course" visitors are going to stop for. All of this rancor for "common sense" and "considerate behavior" totally lacks common sense......
And that is what's wrong with our society these days; far too many people think ONLY of themselves. It's like they live in their own little world and those around them are an inconvenience. They actually believe they can park in the middle of a heavily traveled road, inconvenience dozens of other drivers, just to look at a bear. They have absolutely no consideration, or respect, for others. When asking for considerate behavior is viewed as lacking common sense then our whole society is in trouble.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 08:09AM
Quote
Anvanho

I know visitors will want to stop dead on a dime right then and there, if they suddenly see Bigfoot humping a buffalo right off to the left ...

Okay, if I see that I am going to stop! Rolling on floor laugh
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 11:17AM
Quote
Hitech
Quote
Anvanho

I know visitors will want to stop dead on a dime right then and there, if they suddenly see Bigfoot humping a buffalo right off to the left ...

Okay, if I see that I am going to stop! Rolling on floor laugh

x 2! "Quick, where's the camera?! Where's the camera?!" Head roll
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 09:55AM
I've been reading the forums for a while now, but this is my first post. I think the problem here is endemic, and to which I've painted in one overly broad statement:

"Tourists are idiots."

I give you a prime example: This person got stuck up to their floor boards for doing exactly what they weren't supposed to do.



Yeah, it was that classic. I had to stop and take a picture.



Gary Crabbe
Enlightened Images

"Nearness to Nature keeps the Spirit sensitive to impressions not commonly felt, and in touch with unseen powers." - Oyihesa; Santee Dakota indian, from his book, Soul of the Indian (1911)
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 11:55AM
They didn't think that shoulder was wide enough?
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 11:21AM
I appreciate your post Jalan. I think you have mostly captured the points I have tried to make. Yes everyone should attempt to not block the roadways. But to suggest these are "normal" roadways that will never be blocked with wildlife or people seeing wildlife or other events is just pollyanish. And to label everyone stopping as discourteous, idiots, disrespectful, etc. just exemplifies the attitude that has manifested itself on this thread that "I am a hiker and I want you out of my way so I won't be late for my hike." It might be someone's first day at Yellowstone where they are still enraptured by the buffalo or it might be someones first bear sighting at Yosemite. In either case, I would expect, rangers would expect, and common sense would expect that those visitors may at times stop in the roadway temporarily delaying the poor hiker who is late for his hike.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 11:25AM
Quote
York
... to label everyone stopping as discourteous, idiots, disrespectful, etc. just exemplifies the attitude that has manifested itself on this thread that "I am a hiker and I want you out of my way so I won't be late for my hike." It might be someone's first day...

The first time I experienced these idiots I was a tourist driving a Motorhome in Yosemite. Everyone was stopping for the bear on Oak Flat Road. We all wanted to see the bear too. But I did not pull over into the cones blocking the side of the road nor did I stop in the middle of the road and get out as the idiots did. No on in the car suggested we should, not even the kids. If they know better...
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 12:08PM
Let me just expand on my overly broad statement above about tourists;

There is a difference between "tourists" and "visitors" - Regardless of familiarity with a location; tourists are about themselves and their experience to the exclusion or detriment of all else. Visitors are informed about rules, proper behavior (driving, trails, feeding or stressing wildlife, impact), patient, respectful of the environment and the experience of others. Be a visitor. Don't be a tourist.



Gary Crabbe
Enlightened Images

"Nearness to Nature keeps the Spirit sensitive to impressions not commonly felt, and in touch with unseen powers." - Oyihesa; Santee Dakota indian, from his book, Soul of the Indian (1911)
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 12:12PM
Quote
enlightphoto
Let me just expand on my overly broad statement above about tourists;

.. about themselves and their experience to the exclusion or detriment of all else.

Thats the truth! Perfect summary for all sides of this "debate".
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 08, 2011 02:44AM
Quote
enlightphoto
Let me just expand on my overly broad statement above about tourists;

There is a difference between "tourists" and "visitors" - Regardless of familiarity with a location; tourists are about themselves and their experience to the exclusion or detriment of all else. Visitors are informed about rules, proper behavior (driving, trails, feeding or stressing wildlife, impact), patient, respectful of the environment and the experience of others. Be a visitor. Don't be a tourist.


But I wouldn't use the word tourist to describe such inconsiderate people, since many tourist are well behaved and considerate. The term to me that best describes this type of inconsiderate tourist is: TOURON.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 12:42PM
Quote
York
I appreciate your post Jalan. I think you have mostly captured the points I have tried to make. Yes everyone should attempt to not block the roadways. But to suggest these are "normal" roadways that will never be blocked with wildlife or people seeing wildlife or other events is just pollyanish. And to label everyone stopping as discourteous, idiots, disrespectful, etc. just exemplifies the attitude that has manifested itself on this thread that "I am a hiker and I want you out of my way so I won't be late for my hike." It might be someone's first day at Yellowstone where they are still enraptured by the buffalo or it might be someones first bear sighting at Yosemite. In either case, I would expect, rangers would expect, and common sense would expect that those visitors may at times stop in the roadway temporarily delaying the poor hiker who is late for his hike.

I personally do like seeing wildlife, although mule deer do nothing for me since I see them on a regular basis in my neighborhood. However - common sense should be that one maybe slows down at most. With the encounter I described at Yellowstone, the LE ranger and park volunteers were directing traffic. They were very much encouraging people to get out of their vehicles and look at the bear. They were also working their hardest to keep the traffic moving. They were answering questions about what was going on, but also trying to get people to move or legally park, with the threat of tickets for those who stopped to long in the roadway. In the end, we found a paved parking area about 300 ft away. The bear was still there when we got back to the area. That's the thing about bear jams. They're not fleeting moments. The situation is obviously an animal that has found a comfortable spot and is going to hang around for a while. They were obviously trying to get traffic moving. Some people might want to get to a scheduled program or visit a restaurant before it closes for lunch. Delays do happen, but NPS personnel do make and effort to reduce them.

I once saw a bear in the trees while entering Yosemite Valley on the Valley Loop Road. The speed limit is 35 and I'm pretty sure that if I had stopped, there was a good chance I could have been rear-ended. There was no safe shoulder to stop either. In the end I moved on and was content that I'd seen enough bears that trip; there was a campground bear visiting a nearby campsite the previous day.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 01:16PM
For what it's worth, my wife and I went on a ranger-led hike from Glacier Point a couple of weeks ago on our first day in the park. He was a veteran--had been a ranger since the mid-70's. He said that whenever he comes across a bear jam in the park, he chases the bear off. He said invariable the people stopped will ask him why in the world he did that; and he tells them, "because you're blocking 30 other cars in the middle of the road!"

He made it very clear that stopping in the middle of the road was not something that the NPS endorses or condones. He was resigned to the fact that the practice will persist, but he made sure we "newbies" understood not to do it.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 07:54PM
And that is what's wrong with our society these days; far too many people think ONLY of themselves. It's like they live in their own little world and those around them are an inconvenience. They actually believe they can speed through the middle of a National Park, with no regard to dozens of other visitors and wildlife, just so they can get to their trailhead and hike faster. They have absolutely no consideration, or respect, for others. When asking for considerate behavior and mutual enjoyment of National Parks is viewed as lacking common sense then our whole society is in trouble.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 08:04PM
Quote
York
And that is what's wrong with our society these days; far too many people think ONLY of themselves. It's like they live in their own little world and those around them are an inconvenience.
Yes, that's exactly what people that stop in the middle of the road believe. They are rude and inconsiderate.
Quote

They actually believe they can speed through the middle of a National Park, with no regard to dozens of other visitors and wildlife, just so they can get to their trailhead and hike faster.
No one here has said any such thing.
Quote

They have absolutely no consideration, or respect, for others. When asking for considerate behavior and mutual enjoyment of National Parks is viewed as lacking common sense then our whole society is in trouble.
Enjoy the park all you want. I spend a considerable part of my day making sure visitors enjoy their stay in the park. Common sense tells us not to illegally stop in the middle of a busy highway to get out of the car and look at a bear for 20 minutes.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 08:08PM
Don't waste your time - This guy is suffering from Cluster B Personality Disorder - Maybe he can't resell his Half Dome permits since he keeps getting flagged on Craigslist so he has come here just to waste his time and ours stirring things up - All of us have much better things to do.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 09:00PM
Quote
SoCalCPA
Don't waste your time - This guy is suffering from Cluster B Personality Disorder - Maybe he can't resell his Half Dome permits since he keeps getting flagged on Craigslist so he has come here just to waste his time and ours stirring things up - All of us have much better things to do.
I know.... some people just don't have enough common sense to not park in the middle of the road. Two years ago I came across an RV parked right in the middle of Tioga Road. I got out and asked if they were having problems and I could call a tow truck for them. They were making lunch! If he had driven 15 more feet there was a large pullout, in the shade, that they could make all the lunch they wanted. The driver was upset I asked him to move. I told him I would have a law enforcement ranger there in 5 minutes, and he moved as he swore at me in German.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 09:02PM
Quote
Dave
I told him I would have a law enforcement ranger there in 5 minutes, and he moved as he swore at me in German.

He should try the same stunt on the autobahn.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 08, 2011 04:31PM
Quote
eeek


He should try the same stunt on the autobahn.

Hahaha! I had to chime in after reading Eeek's appropriate line.

I'm married for 23 years to a german woman, we go there every couple of years since the 80's;

I've driven the autobahn many times ... 'cept the absolute fastest I've ever been able to push any rent-a-car [I had] was 127 MPH. ... and man, lemme tell yuh, a whole lot of cars there blast the roadway with a helluva lot more scorch than that ... downright freaky to be going 115 MPH and have some souped up Audi just flat-out go from a spec to a wrecking ball in your rear view mirror in the blink of an eye. But these days now, with all the heavily amped-up commerce with/from the old East Germany; Poland, and beyond, the autobahns [many] are now unmangeably maxed out ... you often can't pedal-to-the-metal anymore .. angry disgruntled Germans today must put up with woefully slow speeds ,,, 80's and 90's ....
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 08, 2011 04:34PM
Quote
Anvanho
angry disgruntled Germans today must put up with woefully slow speeds ,,, 80's and 90's ....

Sounds like I-15 between Barstow and Vegas.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 08:17PM
Quote
York
And that is what's wrong with our society these days; far too many people think ONLY of themselves. It's like they live in their own little world and those around them are an inconvenience. They actually believe they can speed through the middle of a National Park, with no regard to dozens of other visitors and wildlife, just so they can get to their trailhead and hike faster. They have absolutely no consideration, or respect, for others. When asking for considerate behavior and mutual enjoyment of National Parks is viewed as lacking common sense then our whole society is in trouble.

What's the inconvenience? Would it be a line of drivers blocked by someone stopped in the middle of the road to pull out a camera from the trunk, or would it be having to walk a few hundred feet from a legal place to park? Mutual enjoyment requires respect for laws meant for everybody's safety and enjoyment. There's nothing wrong with viewing wildlife near the side of a road. Just find a suitable, legal place to park, and everyone is happy. It's actually spelled out pretty clearly by the NPS:

http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/bearfacts.htm

Quote

Activity Update
Bears have been reported frequently in the West Valley during daylight hours. Many of these bears have been causing traffic jams, as they are highly visible in meadows along roadsides. Please drive cautiously and remain aware of other drivers, people along the road, and the bear during these bear jams. If you decide to stop, pull completely off the road before exiting your car. Never approach a bear, stay at least 50 yards away.

http://lifeinyosemite.com/guilty-bear-jam-pleasure-1420

Quote

Most recently, Tom and I were caravanning two cars back to our house when I looked over and spotted a bear. Tom had seen her too, and we pulled over in the nearest pull-out, grabbed our camera and binoculars and walked back up the street. It wasn’t long before a giant crowd formed. Some people just stopped in the road. Others, with more consideration tried, unsuccessfully, to pull mostly off the street before jumping out to take pictures.

Before long, a resigned-looking ranger appeared, trying to clear the traffic, keep half an eye on people creeping down into the meadow to take a closer look, and get the illegally parked cars off the road. I didn’t envy him his job at that moment.

http://yosemiteblog.com/2010/07/19/seen-a-bear-heres-what-you-should-do/

Quote

Don’t block the road. One of the biggest problems in Yosemite are “bear jams”, groups of people stopping their cars to look at a bear alongside the road, sometimes blocking the road. Bears are great beautiful in their natural environment and make for a great story to tell your friends and family when you get home. However, getting rear-ended or rear-ending another car whose owner stopped in the middle of the road doesn’t.

If you come across a bear jam, slow to make sure the bear isn’t near the roadway or may enter the roadway then proceed to a safe spot to pull over to view the bear. NEVER park in the middle of the road.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 09:20PM
What is wrong with society - people with comprehension problems and complete disregard for the law. Yes, that is you - roads are for driving, pullouts and parking lots are for stopping. Get it through your head.

Stop wasting our time.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 09:24PM
One word for you all: TROLL



Chick-on is looking at you!
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 07, 2011 10:23PM
Quote
chick-on
One word for you all: TROLL

Yeah. I am usually the first one to throw the flag, so I thought that I would sit this one out and wait until someone else got tired of the nonsense.



The body betrays and the weather conspires, hopefully, not on the same day.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 08, 2011 05:35PM
Thinking the same
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 08, 2011 12:06AM
Will it ever end?
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 08, 2011 03:37AM
Quote
qumqats
Will it ever end?


Yes.
Future post submissions from MoronMessages are now being subjected to the "Unapproved Messages" approval process.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2011 03:41AM by szalkowski.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 08, 2011 06:21PM
Quote
SoCalCPA
Don't waste your time - This guy is suffering from Cluster B Personality Disorder - Maybe he can't resell his Half Dome permits since he keeps getting flagged on Craigslist so he has come here just to waste his time and ours stirring things up - All of us have much better things to do.

Seriously, I'm beginning to think the same. I haven't been flagging prohibited CL ads since this topic started. Definitely a troll.



Toodles y'all! Time for better stuff.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 12, 2011 02:30PM
Has anyone else noticed that if you stop your car on the side of a road and are standing outside your car other cars stop? On one of our Yellowstone trips we pulled off to get a snack out of the back of the car. As we were standing next to our car several cars stopped and asked what kind of animal we were looking at. They were really disappointed when we told them that we had stopped to get a snack and there was nothing to see. We have been tempted to stand next to the car, point and jump up and down and see how many people stop but don't want to cause an accident or traffic jam.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 12, 2011 02:47PM
Quote
parklover
Has anyone else noticed that if you stop your car on the side of a road and are standing outside your car other cars stop? On one of our Yellowstone trips we pulled off to get a snack out of the back of the car. As we were standing next to our car several cars stopped and asked what kind of animal we were looking at. They were really disappointed when we told them that we had stopped to get a snack and there was nothing to see. We have been tempted to stand next to the car, point and jump up and down and see how many people stop but don't want to cause an accident or traffic jam.

Try pointing off into the bushes and acting excited as cars approach. Grinning Devil
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 12, 2011 09:55PM
If like this person one is carrying a big camera on a tripod that is especially true. Recall one episode in Zion about 15 years ago where I'd eyed a wide open checkerboard sandstone roadside area while passing by in my car a few times over a couple days. Never saw anyone ever park along that stretch even though there were ample pullouts. Then one afternoon had time to check it out so parked and walked up a ways into the sandstone and set up my tripoded camera etc in a location very visible from the highway below. Very quickly other cars began stopping and the more cars stopped, the bigger the event became. Moms, dads, kids running about yelling and screaming, dogs on leashes barking, RVs, twas a zoo. As soon as I managed to get a shot off, I quickly climbed up over a sandstone ridge in order to disappear. An hour later after rambling about in the nearby canyon, on return twas just my old subu left.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2011 09:57PM by DavidSenesac.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 13, 2011 07:11PM
Yup. It happens way too often. When I'm taking just snapshots or scouting a location, I really don't care. But when I want to take a nice photo with a tripod, I really don't want extra people around me, getting in the way of the photo or disturbing me and asking too many questions.

So what I tend to do is stay in my vehicle until no approaching car is visible, then quickly gather my camera bag and tripod and get off the road and out of sight before the next car drives by. At some locations, it's a lot easier to do this than others.

Fortunately, for dawn and sunrise shoots this isn't too much of a problem because the vast majority of tourists are still in bed or just having breakfast. But for late afternoon or sunset shoots, it can be at times a pain in the neck.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 13, 2011 07:26PM
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plawrence
Yup. It happens way too often. When I'm taking just snapshots or scouting a location, I really don't care. But when I want to take a nice photo with a tripod, I really don't want extra people around me, getting in the way of the photo or disturbing me and asking too many questions.

So what I tend to do is stay in my vehicle until no approaching car is visible, then quickly gather my camera bag and tripod and get off the road and out of sight before the next car drives by. At some locations, it's a lot easier to do this than others.

Fortunately, for dawn and sunrise shoots this isn't too much of a problem because the vast majority of tourists are still in bed or just having breakfast. But for late afternoon or sunset shoots, it can be at times a pain in the neck.

That wouldn't help with a 4x5 camera. It takes too much time to setup, compose, focused, use the spot meter to figure out the desired exposure and load the film holder into the camera. Had to wait for a bus load to leave to take this shot:


http://www.spinics.net/yosemite/
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 13, 2011 07:37PM
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eeek
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plawrence
Yup. It happens way too often. When I'm taking just snapshots or scouting a location, I really don't care. But when I want to take a nice photo with a tripod, I really don't want extra people around me, getting in the way of the photo or disturbing me and asking too many questions.

So what I tend to do is stay in my vehicle until no approaching car is visible, then quickly gather my camera bag and tripod and get off the road and out of sight before the next car drives by. At some locations, it's a lot easier to do this than others.

Fortunately, for dawn and sunrise shoots this isn't too much of a problem because the vast majority of tourists are still in bed or just having breakfast. But for late afternoon or sunset shoots, it can be at times a pain in the neck.

That wouldn't help with a 4x5 camera. It takes too much time to setup, compose, focused, use the spot meter to figure out the desired exposure and load the film holder into the camera.

I wasn't talking about trying to take a quick shot and then leave, but when taking your camera equipment and tripod out of your vehicle, to wait until the "coast is clear" to remove it and then vanish into the woods (or out of sight) before the next vehicle comes along.

Again, in some locations this simply isn't possible like your photo at the Valley View pullout. OTOH, there are other locations on the Merced near there where it's beneficial to use that technique, including by Pohono Bridge. When I want to take photos of the dogwoods in bloom in the area around the Pohono Bridge, I don't remove my camera equipement from my car until there are no other cars nearby, even if I have to wait five or six minutes for a break in the traffic on the road.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 13, 2011 11:02AM
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parklover
Has anyone else noticed that if you stop your car on the side of a road and are standing outside your car other cars stop?

I've noticed this too. It feels like an honor sometimes -- that people want to see whatever you are looking at. Other times though, like when I've pulled over to change out of my hiking pants, the extra attention isn't necessarily wanted.
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 13, 2011 09:30AM
They must have thought you saw something interesting. If it was an animal all of the commotion would have scared it off. A stopped car seems to be a magnet attracting other cars to stop. A stopped car with a photographer standing next to it is even more of a attractant. It has happened to us in almost every park we have been in but is most common in parks like Yellowstone, Yosemite, Tetons, etc where wildlife watching is really popular. It is too bad that when people see animals they tend to go nuts and start running towards the animals and yelling which scares them off and then no one gets to see them. Of course that is a whole other topic to get into. I have seen so many man VS animals incidents that I could write a book.

Which brings me to another question. Why is it when we are fly fishing in a river near a pull off people stop and they think that it is OK for their kids to throw rocks in the river right next to where we are fishing? When we give them dirty looks, they say 'Oh, are you fishing?" DUH, I am standing in a river with a fishing pole what do they think I am doing?
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 13, 2011 10:52AM
Nope, just washing some flys.... here's you sign! Head roll
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 13, 2011 07:15PM
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parklover

Which brings me to another question. Why is it when we are fly fishing in a river near a pull off people stop and they think that it is OK for their kids to throw rocks in the river right next to where we are fishing? When we give them dirty looks, they say 'Oh, are you fishing?" DUH, I am standing in a river with a fishing pole what do they think I am doing?

It's just kids being kids. Kids like to throw rocks into the river (or lake) regardless if anyone is trying to fish nearby.

Unfortunately, many parents don't know (let alone have taken the time to teach) proper etiquette about how to enjoy nature with others so not to disturb other people's enjoyment of the land (or river or lake).
Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 13, 2011 09:58PM
I seem to spend a lot of time just washing flies when we go fishing. LOL

I understand the fascination of throwing rocks in rivers, I am a rock skipper myself. However, not only were they scaring the fish, several came a bit too close for comfort to us. There was an incident in Bryce Canyon a few years ago where a kid was throwing rocks off one of the over looks and hit a hiker on the head on the trail below and seriously injured him. There are signs everywhere saying not to throw things over because there are trails below.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 13, 2011 10:37PM
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parklover
I seem to spend a lot of time just washing flies when we go fishing. LOL

I understand the fascination of throwing rocks in rivers, I am a rock skipper myself. However, not only were they scaring the fish, several came a bit too close for comfort to us. There was an incident in Bryce Canyon a few years ago where a kid was throwing rocks off one of the over looks and hit a hiker on the head on the trail below and seriously injured him. There are signs everywhere saying not to throw things over because there are trails below.

I remember when one of my traveling companions was telling me about a kid who was throwing rocks across a series of paved switchbacks in the Yellowstone Canyon area on the way to the brink of Lower Yellowstone Fall. Apparently his mom didn't appreciate her kid being scolded by someone else. From what I understand, it could have very well have hit myself of the dozen or so others on the switchbacks.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 14, 2011 08:09AM
So far this season we've been stopped 3 times on the roads by people who stopped in the middle of the road and got out of their cars to photograph bears, once on Glacier Point Road, once on Hwy 120, and once on the valley floor. The worst incident was on Glacier Point Road when the traffic was backed up for a couple miles. When we finally got to where the problem was, there was a ranger parked there too answering questions! Needless to say we were not happy. On 120 a ranger pulled up and told everyone to get back in their cars and stop blocking traffic.

In another incident we stopped by Glacier Point in the middle of the week around noon. It was a real zoo up there. People were parked everywhere. When we finally got to the parking we found out why it was so crowded. Six large pick-ups with horse trailers were parked lengthwise in the upper lot taking up about 30-40 parking spots! No sign of the owners or horses. A ranger was there giving them tickets.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 14, 2011 10:38AM
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Calaveras
In another incident we stopped by Glacier Point in the middle of the week around noon. It was a real zoo up there. People were parked everywhere. When we finally got to the parking we found out why it was so crowded. Six large pick-ups with horse trailers were parked lengthwise in the upper lot taking up about 30-40 parking spots! No sign of the owners or horses. A ranger was there giving them tickets.

Good to hear that they got tickets. (Though it would have been better (and sweeter) if you had seen the park service having the trucks and trailers towed away!)

It always amazes me how some people are so inconsiderate of their fellow park visitors.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2011 10:40AM by plawrence.
avatar Re: I thought I had seen it all.....but,
July 14, 2011 01:53PM
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plawrence
(Though it would have been better (and sweeter) if you had seen the park service having the trucks and trailers towed away!)

The tow trucks were probably on the way.
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