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Re: input on itinerary: part II

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avatar input on itinerary: part II
January 15, 2013 03:40PM
Hi everyone, a little while back I posted a proposed itinerary for a solo BP trip to YNP I'm planning this summer. FYI here is the original thread: http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,60291,60390#msg-60390.

Based on a lot of the input I received in that thread (thanks again!) plus some additional insights from more homework, I have revised my itinerary and would love any feedback you may have.

First, some important things I learned that impact my itinerary:

- Car rentals are expensive -- current rates given my itinerary from SFO would be well over $400 for the car (little one) for 10 days, plus gas, that's a lot for a car that's going to sit for over a week. Amtrak here I come!

- Amtrak has a mid-afternoon departure to SFO, SMF, and FAT, but what I learned is they also have a departure at 6pm from the Valley for SMF and FAT only. That helps me on my last day and makes Amtrak a viable option for me (saves me from having to end a day early). Doesn't hurt either that park entrance is included with the fare, as opposed to paying $20 for driving in.

- I can mail some of my stuff to myself to be held not only at the post office in the Valley, but also to the post office in TM. That's huge -- instead of hauling 8 days worth of food (which requires a large bear can rental, which requires a new pack for me), now I can send one package to the Valley with a few days' worth and a separate package to TM with a re-supply. I already own a small bear can (BV450), and with the space and weight saved I should be able to do the whole 8 days in my 45L pack. That saves a couple hundred $$ right there.

My new proposed itinerary also has the potential to lighten the food load even more as I will be camping near two HSCs, so might be able to get a hot dinner and/or breakfast in those places (I know I need to reserve that well ahead, in fact those might be full already).

Here's my current thinking (8 full days on the trail):

Fri 7/19
Arrive YNP via Amtrak ~1:30pm. Get permit, package from post office, stock up fuel etc.
If time do a little relaxing sightseeing in the Valley
camp in Valley BP camp

SAT 7/20
Upper Yosemite Falls Trail
head towards North Dome
camp near ND

SUN 7/21
Basket Dome
Indian Rock and Arch
hike towards May Lake (Snow Creek Trail?)
camp on Snow Creek Trail (not sure if I will still be south of Tioga Rd or will make it across this day)

MON 7/22
May Lake
Mt. Hoffman - tentative, not sure about altitude acclimation, will just have to play it by ear
camp near May Lake HSC

TUE 7/23
9:55a catch hiker's shuttle at May Lake Junction ($4)
10:30a arrive TM
get package at TM post office
get 2nd wilderness permit (will have called ahead to designate for late arrival)
start out JMT
explore Cathedral Lakes
camp near Sunrise HSC

WED 7/24
Sunrise Trail to Clouds Rest Trail
Cloud's Rest
camp below Half Dome

THU 7/25
Half Dome
camp LYV...or...descend to Valley and camp there in BP camp

FRI 7/26
If starting from LYV: up Panorama to GP to Pohono (requires extension on Cathedral Lakes permit)
If starting from Valley: up 4-Mile to GP to Pohono (requires separate permit, will get walk-up)
camp on Pohono (near Bridalveil Creek?)

SAT 7/27
come down Pohono
from Tunnel View, hike 2.5 mi to El Cap Bridge for shuttle (yuck) or hitch a ride (8 days on the trail though, don't know who would want me in their car!)
depart: Amtrak leaves 6pm

As you can see, in some respects this isn't that different from my first itinerary, but it feels significantly different (to me). All I really am missing from that first plan is slogging up OBOFRT and the top of El Cap. I might miss the 4-Mile Trail as well, though currently I'm thinking I might as well come down to the Valley from HD and do the 4-Mile since the Panorama doesn't save as much altitude gain as it might seem (4-Mile is 3,200 ft up to GP, Panorama from top of Nevada Falls is about 2,000 ft up to GP) and I've done the Panorama before. OBOFRT itself wasn't an attraction, so really I am only missing top of El Cap.

I will need as many as three wilderness permits to do this, I spoke with the YNP wilderness permit office to confirm. He advised to get the 3rd if needed (4-Mile) as a walk-up since I might prefer to extend the 2nd instead, plus he said 4-Mile quota rarely fills so I should be OK.

Wow I've given you a lot to read. If you can skim it for a few pointers, great! If you can read through and give me even more advice, fantastic!

First wilderness permit application deadline is in 2 weeks!

Thanks again all, what a great community.
Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 15, 2013 04:07PM
On 7-26, consider adding Sentinel Dome to your plans. It won't take that much
more time and is a cool spot.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 15, 2013 04:26PM
Thanks. Yeah, I didn't put every detail in here, that is already on my list if I'm up for even more elevation. More likely to do SD if I go up by Panorama than if by 4-Mile, but really will just be playing it by ear.

I did SD last summer so if I don't do it I won't feel too bad, plus after CR and HD and Hoffman it won't be quite as spectacular. Yet, agreed, it is spectacular. If I'm hiking by and feel OK for another 300-400 ft I'll definitely go up.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 15, 2013 07:14PM
Having planned backcountry trips with air travel that required renting a car just to have it sit at substantial expense (7 nights parked in Ely, MN...grrr), I'm happy to see the Amtrak option would work for your itinerary.

For the 7/23 permit out of Tuolumne, even though that is a Tuesday it is Cathedral Lakes...FAX your request in as soon as allowed (I think after 5 PM Pacific Time on the prior workday gets you into a 'mini-lottery' ahead of telephone callers on the next workday, know that's the case if the prior workday in question is a Friday). And have a secondary plan on the FAX that would still let you do what you want (I wouldn't bother with the backup from here, but for trips planned long-distance I would).

Have fun!
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 15, 2013 07:26PM
If Cathedral Lakes is full, ask for a Budd Creek permit, tell them you will camp at Echo Lake. Easy cross country, a bunch of different options, hike back over to the JMT after that.

Thank you for riding YARTS!
Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 15, 2013 08:38PM
7/19 AMTRAK / YARTS is great. The bus can drop you off right at the Visitors Center, the wilderness center and post office is right there as well. 1:30 pm arrival time gives you time to relax and see the sights. Maybe walk over to Lower Yosemite Falls and take a look as you won't have a good vantage point from the Upper Yosemite Falls trail. I like the Ahwahnee hotel bar for an evening beverage, it's only a short walk from the backpackers campground.
7/20 North dome is fabulous. Make sure you fill up water at the creek as there is none right there.
7/21 As you get to the bridge on the Snow Creek trail walk out to see the view, similar to North Dome you will be looking straight at Half Dome, maybe make this your lunch spot. Top of Mount Watkins is half a mile or so off trail and there is no water up there, but it does make a wonderful camp. Might have it to yourself.
7/22 May Lake Try to sign up for the dinner, good food, and Brian the camp host tells wonderful Yosemite history stories. If you feel up for it, the hike up Mt Hoffman is worth it. Takes about half a day to do at a fairly leisurely pace.
7/23 No need to try to time the hiker shuttle at 9:55 am. Just hike the trail to Tenaya lake, it is the same distance. At Tenaya you have the free Tuolomne Meadows shuttle going by every half hour or so. Tuolomne Meadows is worth half a day (or half a lifetime) of sightseeing, also has a backpackers camp where you can stay for a night for $5.
7/24 QITLN suggestion of Budd creek to Echo Lake is a good one.
7/25 Past Sunrise camp, don't forget to check out Sunrise lakes and do fill up water as there isn't much for the next many miles. The traditional camp spot is where the Clouds Rest trail meets the JMT down by the river. It can be quite crowded though, so if you carry enough water with you, camp before this point maybe close to Pinnacles. There is supposed to be a spring around there somewhere but I have never found it.
7/26 Climb Half Dome and head back down to Yosemite Valley. Spend the night in the backpackers camp.
7/27 Another day of sightseeing in the Valley. Take advantage of the showers and pool at Curry Village. $5 includes use of towels.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 17, 2013 05:24AM
Sorry Katy I didn't see this until this morning. Great tips, many of which I already knew but that's what is great about giving and receiving tips -- even if you reinforce a lot the other person already knows (valuable in itself) there always seem to a few additional "gems" that can really enhance the experience.

I hadn't thought of Watkins, didn't realize it is so close off the trail, definitely something to put on my list of possible excursions. Hoffman my idea is simply to go for it and I'll either make it or I'll feel the altitude and turn around. I know there is no real cure for altitude except descending.

I didn't realize the trek down from May Lake to Tenaya was similar distance as down the road to the May Lake Junction, didn't even look at that closely. But yes that would make more sense -- since I probably will come up to May Lake by the old Tioga Rd extension it would be nice to take a different route down, I'll get at least a minimum of a few minutes at Tenaya Lake, I'll save $4 (yipee!), and if I miss the hiker's shuttle I'm SOL but if I miss the TM shuttle I can just catch the next one.

Appreciate the water advisories, aware of those already. Question: After Sunrise Lakes on the way to CR there is a stream shown on all the topos I've looked at but no name given. It is just before (north of) where the CR trail splits to the summit route or east-around bypass route. The trail crosses this stream, it then drains down into the canyon and into Tenaya Creek above Pywiak Cascade. Is that a reliable water source?

And in general it looks like are advocating that I skip the 4-Mile and Pohono but instead take a day in the middle to relax at TM and another day at the end to relax in the Valley. If 'm feeling beat up that idea will be very tempting...

Thanks again, all very helpful stuff to help make the most of my trip.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 15, 2013 08:35PM
Thanks guys. Ttilley, I didn't mention but I am aware of the starting gun and the fax early bird. Already on my calendar to fax immediately after 5p PST on 2/1 for 7/20 and on 2/4 for 7/23.

Backup plan is a good idea. QITNL, I see on the map how Budd Creek would work. But...I don't see a trailhead for Budd Creek -- how would I list that as a backup? And is that "kosher" to use a permit to enter a different trail and then cut over to the original plan that I didn't score?

Barring that as a backup, it looks like Sunrise Lakes out of the outlet of Tenaya Lake is the only other viable backup to go thru southbound out of TM, no? (Rafferty Creek by way of Vogelsang and Merced HSCs is way too far around for me). Especially for CR and then HD. I imagine demand for that is about as high if not higher as for Cathedral. Otherwise I may need to come up with a whole backup itinerary -- if I can't get the trailhead I need for the itinerary then it isn't an itinerary anymore in any event.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 08:35PM by JRinGeorgia.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 15, 2013 08:38PM
Sunrise is popular, Cathedral is popular, etc...but you only need to get one of those options. My take is Cathedral and Sunrise are extremely popular relative to Rafferty (which doesn't get you to CR within your timeframe), though it too is popular. Budd Creek (QITNL's option) is not so popular.

Edit: you won't see Budd Creek mentioned on the websites, but check the pulldowns on the fill-in form, I think you'll see it. Go towards the bottom.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 08:42PM by ttilley.
Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 15, 2013 09:27PM
The permit controls where you enter and to some extent where you spend your first night. After that you can go where-ever your feet will carry you.

Budd Lake is an "off-trail trail-head". There is an unmarked but pretty sturdy use trail to Budd Lake, no camping at Budd Lake, instead you continue off trail over the crest and down to Echo Lake. Easier than it sounds, but you should be comfortable off trail obviously.

If you skip the restocking in Tuolomne Meadows you can do the whole thing on a single permit. From May Lake hike down to Tenaya Lake, cross the road, and continue up to Sunrise lakes.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 16, 2013 08:07AM
Ah, yes I do now see Budd Creek at the bottom of the list. Silly me, I was looking in the TM listings.

Thanks Katy for that input. I do know I could go straight from May Lake to Sunrise, following that portion of the HSC loop, and that will be my back-pocket option if I don't get what I'm looking for on the 2nd permit, I can just change the exit on the 1st permit. But I'm wanting to do the more scenic JMT/Cathedral and even without re-supply my original plan was to swing through TM to get there for that. Budd Creek does sound like the 2nd choice to put on the permit app.

Curious about cutting between Budd Creek and JMT/Cathedral -- my map doesn't show the trail at Budd Creek but I assume it follows the creek drainage up to Budd Lake, which would mean that it starts out of TM either at the same trail entry as JMT or very close. So how far would I need to follow that trail before cutting over to JMT? Do I need to follow it around the east side of Cathedral Peak and jump the saddle over to Cathedral Lakes? Or could I just cut over 50 yards up the trail? And, if I have a permit that says first night camping at Echo Lake, and then that first night I'm actually in the BP camp at Sunrise HSC, is that a problem? I have heard that NPS checks permits in the HSC BP camps.
Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 16, 2013 09:58AM
It is an off trail permit, so stay off trail until the next day. Eg Budd Creek use trail towards Budd Lake, off trail over the crest, continue off trail down to Echo Lake and camp there overnight. Next day follow the Cathedral fork and you'll hit the trail in a mile or so. From there continue your itinerary towards Sunrise and Clouds Rest.
Using it just to cut over to a trail in order to circumvent the trail quotas is definitely not allowed.

Edited to clarify.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2013 10:05AM by KatyAnderson.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 16, 2013 08:29AM
You should do this:
Up Merced all the way to park boundary. (Post Peak)
Come back via High Trail past Bernice and over Vogelsang Pass.
Restock at TM
down GCT and up to White Wolf
Bus back to valley from White Wolf

smiling smiley

75 Miles
(you were open to all suggestions, right?)

Have fun planning (you can't really go wrong anyway)



Chick-on is looking at you!
Re: input on itinerary: part II
February 05, 2013 07:16PM
Quote
chick-on
You should do this:
Up Merced all the way to park boundary. (Post Peak)
Come back via High Trail past Bernice and over Vogelsang Pass.
Restock at TM
down GCT and up to White Wolf
Bus back to valley from White Wolf

smiling smiley

75 Miles
(you were open to all suggestions, right?)

Have fun planning (you can't really go wrong anyway)


This sounds like a fantastic trip! There is something magical about spending time close to the rivers. The sound, the view, the geography, the life of the river -- this will always demand bonus points. The hike up the merced river canyon is amazing. I haven't done the high trail back, but would love to. I'd recommend exiting fromr Vogelsang to TM via Lyell Canyon rather than Rafferty if the time is available. In addition to beiing beautiful, it allows the relationship with the tuolumne to begin early and blossom during the hike down GCT.

I want to do this.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 16, 2013 12:41PM
Got it, thanks for clarifying Katy. It didn't sound "kosher" to apply for one trailhead and then just skip over to the other trail, what you're saying makes sense.

Chick-on, that sounds like a great itinerary for my next trip, I do appreciate the suggestion. I've read some wonderful things about Merced up towards Vogelsang and beyond, and my wishful thinging already has GCT high on the list for my next trip. I've been a little dubious about that 4k climb out of Pate Valley, but then again I don't seem to have any issues with going up the 4-Mile and over the ridge on Sentinel Dome (if not to the top of the dome itself), so up is up what's the difference, right?
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 16, 2013 02:43PM
Cathedral Lakes/JMT & Budd Creek start at the same trailhead, the trail to Budd Creek splits off after about a quarter mile. If you list Budd Creek as your second choice (it would be my first choice) your permit is pretty much guaranteed. Post up if you get Budd Creek and we'll give you all the info you require.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 16, 2013 03:41PM
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 17, 2013 05:36AM
Thanks Chick-On, you always have great insights. Your post is deceptively simple -- go to this link, that includes not just a detailed discussion but also more links, that themselves include more discussions and links -- I must have 10 tabs open right now about Budd Creek up to the lake and beyond. All with excellent info, photos, etc, really helpful stuff and just fun to read as well.

How is the scenery on Budd Creek compared to JMT/Cathedral? I specifically have been hoping to do Cathedral because of the scenery (if I just wanted to go to CR I could do that much easier from May Lake to Tenaya Lake and up the trail from there). I imagine it can't be too shabby on the other side of Cathedral Peak with closer views of Unicorn, coming over the saddle with Echo Peaks, etc.

Tanks!
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 17, 2013 07:16AM
Of course no matter what you do you will have a great time. I just think perhaps
you are expending a wee bit too much energy where you don't have to and
there are other options available for you to get the views you are perhaps looking for.
I will leave that comment as is and just let you contemplate it.
Again, it probably won't matter since you will have a great time.

May Lake Road - you won't want to walk up this. There is a trail, take that.
(I'm assuming you stay on trail mostly) (to get to May Lake Rd. from trail
you have to hike Tioga Rd.) (been there.. done that) (meh)
As Katy said... take trail from May Lake to Tenaya. Either Old Tioga
(where there is a TM shuttle stop right on Tioga Rd/Old Tioga Jct) (before
you hit Tenaya Lake)... or hike past Raisin and around and down Murphy
Creek to Tenaya Lake. Or... just go to Glen Aulin and hike yur booty to TM.
smiling smiley

One big thing to also consider is that with that there bus ticket.
Well... you are allowed to stay ONE night in each desiginated backpacker
campground. You can take advantage of this and perhaps do some
dayhiking on day 1 (4 Mile perhaps). Get your permit. Stay there 2nd
night with bp permit... 3rd day... on your way.

Until you get up much higher both Budd and Cath lakes trails... and
Elizabeth... and... are mostly in trees and it's a push.
The best trail is actually "The fisherman's" trail to Lower Cathedral.

I'l just say what I always say... "been on that trail before? no? ok, then
you should hike the trail first... then come back and explore more"

Have fun



Chick-on is looking at you!
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 18, 2013 11:32AM
JR,

Just a couple comments regarding Budd Lake trail:

I don't know that it's kosher to cut over from the Budd Lake trail to the JMT/Cathedral area on the first day because you will not be camping on your first night where you said you would. If a ranger checks you out on the JMT the first day but your permit says Budd Lake he may judge you in violation of your trailhead permit. Others may have a better take on this.

If you cut over from the lower part of the JMT to find the Budd Lake trail it may be difficult to locate initially; just go to the creek and you will find it. At a certain point up the creek you should be crossing over to the east side of the creek for a ways. If you stay on the west side of the creek it's very easy to accidentally end up on the Cathedral Peak climber's trail.

Going "over the crest" at Echo Peaks can be a little demanding, depending on your conditioning and off-trail experience. I would classify the final portion of the north slope up to Echo peaks as just short of Class 2 hiking. Some of it may be hand over hand (stay away from the scree field). The other side is lots of loose gravel and bushes until you get down to some granite outcrops. There are numerous avenues down the other side but the further left you go the better off you are. Don't go down right between the peaks themselves--way too steep. The views from Echo Peaks are worth the climb. You will see Matthes Crest from a different point of view and a good look down the valley towards Echo Lake.

If you take the Budd Lake route you will miss the front view of Cathedral Peak and the walk around Lower Cathedral Lake but will still have a great time. We like to say is doesn't matter. it's all good! Whatever you decide, enjoy!
Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 25, 2013 02:47PM
Quote
chick-on
The best trail is actually "The fisherman's" trail to Lower Cathedral.
I've seen a sign for the fisherman's trail in TM north of Tioga but I had no idea it might lead to a treasure like a back route to Lower Cathedral.

I've no great love for that section of the JMT.

Where would I find the trailhead for this alternate route to Lower Catherdral?
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 25, 2013 03:11PM
Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 25, 2013 04:32PM
That's a great little trail. I'll definitely be hiking it at some time this summer.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 21, 2013 02:09PM
Hi, wasn't able to respond for a few days, but again thanks as always for the continued feedback. Tom, that's good info about coming over the saddle north of Echo Peaks, actually sounds a bit more than I was hoping for. Not having spent much time at elevation before, that route now concerns me -- it's one thing to put Hoffman on an itinerary from May Lake and then if I'm having problems just go back down, very different to plan a route that if I have trouble the solution is to backtrack a half-dozen or more miles. I'll need to think about that.

And chick-on, as always I appreciate your additional input. Yes meant on the trail up to May Lake, not the road itself, was just shorthanding. Interesting about the fisherman's route, I've heard it mentioned a couple of times and found a rough trail sketch, I think you might even have done it. Funny, before you mentioned it I had wondered about ascending from north end of Tenaya Lake up to Lower Cathedral Lake, was just looking at Google maps and such to see if it is feasible, the fisherman's route starts further up the road and ascends more head-on. You say it's "better" -- in what respect? Clearly it's short to reach Cath Lakes, is it also more scenic? Start higher so less total elevation gain? And to take that trail, what trailhead would I apply for? Sunrise? Or would that only really matter in respect to where I camp, not where I place my first footsteps?

I get the feeling you are being tactful when you say you "think perhaps you are expending a wee bit too much energy where you don't have to." I'm guessing you think I'm expending more than a wee bit too much or you wouldn't have mentioned it. You won't hurt my feelings, criticize away! I don't want to end up expending unnecessary energy either. I've only been to Yosemite once (last summer), with non-BP daughter in tow, and I got just a taste and knew I had to come back. Coming from a relative "Yosemite newbie" position I did have Yosemite Falls, CR, and HD on my list. I've heard a lot about the JMT/Cathedral being a more scenic approach over Sunrise, but if there's something even better I'm all ears. 4-Mile and the viewpoints off Pohono also grabbed my attention. Generally I prefer established use trails, at least until I am more familiar with an area. Those thoughts, and the fact that I pretty untested at altitude have tempered my itinerary ideas. But I remain open to better ways to do this within my comfort zone. Chick-On, were you suggesting 4-Mile on day 1 then Pohono day 2? Or something else?

Thanks!
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 21, 2013 06:31PM
I don't know what route Tom is referring to, in my experience Echo Lake via Budd Creek is as easy as it is beautiful. Your hands needn't touch granite. If you follow the recently rebuilt climber's trail to the south (edit) side of Cathedral, you are still going precisely in the right direction. I can send a gps track if you want it. It's one of my favorite parts of the park and real quiet; if people scare you off, no problem - perhaps I shouldn't even be posting. I mentioned it only as a back-up for the JMT which is pretty much all in the trees until past Upper Cathedral, crowded, kinda boring.

To backtrack to the JMT you can follow a well-travelled use trail from Echo Lake to Cathedral Pass or cut the corner wherever you feel comfortable. It is easy terrain. I'll leave it to you to look at the maps, measure the distance, see if that works with your itinerary.

I would not recommend the Fisherman's trail to Lower Cathedral to someone with your level of experience lugging a full pack out of TM. It's fun but a little more tricky. I definitely would not recommend ascending from the north end of Tenaya Lake up to Lower Cathedral Lake. You'd be heading up the waterfall in the bottom of this photo:



Also pictured here:

- the Lower Cathedral fisherman's trail arrives at the lake from the slabs on the left of the photo.

- the John Manure is in the trees down in the gully

- Budd Creek to Echo Lake follows the ridge 3/4's of the way up the photo, you can probably see it, it's pretty much level. At the right hand of the shot it descends.

- this shot was taken 7/15/11, a relatively high snow year. We still have some winter in front of us, which may factor in to your plans.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2013 10:51PM by QITNL.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 21, 2013 07:50PM
Tomdisco (Jim not Tom) went to Echo from Budd via the "pass" between Echo Peaks
and Echo Ridge (Wilt's Col is b/t Echo #7 and Echo #8/9). Why? Because he
wanted to go to the top of saddle north of Matthes Crest. From there-ish he
dropped down into Echo Lake. There are much easier ways to Echo Lake
from Budd Lake if that is your goal. The views on all the routes are excellent
due to the open-ness once out of the woods near Budd.
I only mentioned Fisherman's just because the JMT is a yawner until you're very
close to Upper Cathedral... and if you don't take the side trail completely miss
Lower Cathedral.
Again, I go back to... been on that trail? no? Then I recommend the trail for starters.

JR, what I was getting at was simply... with your bus ticket you can stay at the
backpackers campground for your first night. So maybe you want to dayhike 4 Mile
on your first or 2nd day. Then on 3rd day with your permit you can start a backpack
trip. Consider taking bus up to, say Porcupine Flat, and hike North Dome back
down to valley. Then you can take another bus up to Tuolumne and stay up
there one night with your bus pass and dayhike and then do another backpack
trip... say down the JMT back down to the valley.
Just food for thought.

Have fun



Chick-on is looking at you!
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 22, 2013 01:21PM
Chick-on is right. I went over the pass with intent to traverse to the saddle of Matthes Crest. A blinding headache, my only episode with altitude sickness, drove me off the mountain so I never went to the saddle. It's on my list again for this year but I will not be going over the crest at Echo Peaks. Apparently the easy route to Echo Lake via Budd Creek takes one around the west side of Echo Peaks. That's the only easy way I can imagine.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 30, 2013 06:09PM
Never get tired of that view of Lower Cathedral Lake in QITNL's picture. Is that from up on Polly Dome? I went up the South East side of Polly Dome once, but started too late before dark. Looked like you could walk up a ways on that side.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 30, 2013 06:39PM
Polly Dome - yep.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 21, 2013 08:26PM
Quote
JRinGeorgia
Car rentals are expensive -- current rates given my itinerary from SFO would be well over $400 for the car (little one) for 10 days, plus gas, that's a lot for a car that's going to sit for over a week. Amtrak here I come!

I've taken Amtrak twice (so far) from the Bay Area to the park. One of the things I liked least about it was the limited amount of carryon baggage I was allowed -- basically, my daypack and one suitcase. Then again, I was staying at the Bug so I had the luxury of leaving my suitcase there when I went to the park. I assume you're planning to carry everything with you for the whole trip, meaning no suitcase but a considerably bigger backpack. The maximum size and weight for a piece of carryon baggage on Amtrak was less than for checked baggage on a plane. Amtrak didn't to seem to be very sticky about enforcing their baggage limits but in their fine print they say they could, anytime they wanted to.

As I recall, you can check (and claim) oversized baggage at some Amtrak stations but not others. It looks like Merced, Emeryville, Sacramento and Fresno are all included so in principle you could. I've never tried checking baggage on Amtrak myself and I'm not eager to. Trains often get delayed for trackside emergencies and other reasons -- for me it was two trips out of four, by half an hour or more each. Buses may do better most of the time but last October there happened to be a lot of repaving going on between Mariposa and Merced -- with up to half-hour delays. If you get to Merced with just enough time to catch your bus (or train), you'll be glad you don't need to check or claim baggage too.

The YARTS/Amtrak buses (Merced to Yosemite) have big baggage compartments underneath. Those didn't come very close to filling up on any of the four trips where I used them. I got to bring my daypack aboard whenever the bus wasn't too crowded, but I wouldn't have wanted to try that with anything bigger. The buses have restrooms but I'm not sure about drinking water. I kept a water bottle (and a packet or two of trailmix) with me even when the rest of my stuff was down in the hold.

I don't know anything about the Backpackers Campground that's east of the Ahwahnee. If their space availability is geared to wilderness permits issued or something, you may be in luck. During the summer Camp 4, the other walk-in campground, starts taking applications early in the morning, first come first served, and usually fills up before 9 AM.

I'm following this thread with some interest because, although I'm almost entirely a day hiker, I just might want to try a short backpacking trip sometime. Any solutions (or lack of) that you come up with for your trip, would probably be useful info for planning (or at least pipedreaming) mine.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 22, 2013 02:11PM
Again, many many thanks for the helpful info.

@QITNL, wonderful and helpful photo, thanks. I wasn't planning to scramble up from Tenaya, just wondered about it and looked at it, decided it might be doable for some but not what I'm looking for, so no worries there. I didn't realize the JMT was so forested so far up (or down) the trail, clearly I am not missing much if I end up at Cathedral Lakes by some other route. And good to know that Budd Lake is still a good back-up that could fit my comfort level. I might take you up on that offer of GPS tracks, though it sounds as if I should be OK as long as I am forewarned. John Manure? I thought it was supposed to be a nice trail, is there a reason you and chick-on aren't so keen on it? Just because it's relatively more crowded?

@chick-on, tanks for Sharon (couldn't resist) about reaching Echo Lake. Lower Cathedral I definitely want to sidestep to. Sticking to the trail as much as possible is something we agree on. Daytripping before or between BP is another good thought, I'll play around with some variations on the itinerary.

@gophersnake, I had already looked into Amtrak baggage policy and think I will be OK. It states: "Each passenger can have a total of 2 carry-on bags, each not to exceed 50 lbs. (23 kg), 28 x 22 x 14 inches (700 x 550 x 350 millimeters)." And: "Each passenger can check up to 4 bags - 2 free of charge and 2 for $20 per bag, each not to exceed 50 lbs. (23 kg), 75 linear inches (length + width + height)." I assume these are the baggage policies that would apply, no? If so then I should be fine. 28x22x14 for carry-on is actually much bigger than airlines allow (typically 22x14x9). I will have only my backpack, and as noted in my first post I think I can do this trip with my 45L if I re-stock at TM in the middle of the trip, and that pack actually fits airline carry-on policy so certainly should fit Amtrak. I will also have a little Flash 18 in my pack that I can pull out for the bus, put some water and snacks in it and check the bigger pack. Any snafus you anticipate with that plan?

FYI, for the flight to SMF and back I will have to check a separate bag (poles, knife, etc). I will need a motel in Sacramento night before Amtrak and again one night after the trip before flying home, I plan to use the same motel for both nights and ask them to hold the empty bag for me for a week so I don't have to tote that through YNP (will ask ahead of time).

I owe a big TR and lots of photos for all the great, helpful advice, and nothing will please me more than to post how great a time I had thanks to all the assistance I received here!
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 22, 2013 05:44PM
You'll have no problem with your luggage on Amtrak/YARTS. You never check it in, they don't weigh or measure it. You lug it on the train yourself, take it upstairs next to your seat, stick it in one of the luggage compartments where you can kinda keep an eye on it. When you switch to the bus they toss it in the luggage hold underneath. Backpackers are often given a little preferencial treatment. As well, on your way back, mention to the bus driver you are connecting with Amtrak, that gets you to the head of the line, he will probably ask.

John Manure is just a little dig, parts of it are real neat. But by the end of the season, it's covered with it. When the the going gets tough, mules take a dump.
Re: input on itinerary: part II
February 05, 2013 07:34PM
I've traveled by Amtrak into the park form Sacramento a couple times. Each time involved an Amtrak Bus, Amtrak train, and the YARTS bus. There was never any discussion about baggage. I was traveling only with a backpack. On one occasion I checked the pack and on another I did not. When you check it, they store underneath bus and train. When you do not, you place it yourself (sorta) under the bus, and you carry it with you on the train (there is a place as you go up the stairs to place packs). It really worked exceptionally well. Since I know of no place to store any other "baggage' in the park while backpacking, I depart Sacramento with only my pack.

Part of this trip I took may overlap part of yours (North dome, Indian Rock, Snow Creek) if that is still the plan. There is a great campsite south of the snow creek bridge before the trail starts down that overlooks half dome, which I recommend. There is a pic in this post of it.

http://yosemitenews.info/forum/read.php?3,62895

Hope you have a great trip!
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 22, 2013 07:35PM
That's pretty much what I figured, thanks.

And I didn't realize JMT is a pack trail, so it can be John Manure quite literally. That's OK, I've smelled worse...
Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 25, 2013 12:13PM
Just found your thread. I applaud your ambition but think you may be overestimating the effects of altitude and underestimating what 8 straight days of backpacking (especially those 4000' elevation changes between the valley and the high country) will do to your legs.

Here's what I'd recommend (both to adjust to altitude and some minor adjustments to your itinerary to save your legs) for a Hall of Fame backpacking trip around the rim of the valley. I've specifically set up Days 4 & 5 to be pretty easy hiking days to give your body a chance to recover. Personally, I try to take a down day every 5th or 6th day on a backpack through the Sierras but I like to do 20 mile days.

Day 1: Get to the valley, get your permit, push your activity level enough to get your heart and lungs working (do it interval-style - get winded, recover, repeat) while walking around, riding the shuttle, enjoying the tourist attractions (Curry Village, Yosemite Village, Yosemite Falls, Happy Isles, etc,), sleep in the backpacker's campground.

Day 2: Valley to Snow Creek/Tenaya (6 - 8 mi 4000' ele - mostly climbing). Leave the valley via Snow Creek Trail out past Mirror Lake. The trail, the views and the solitude on Snow Creek are far superior to Yosemite Falls. Take your time, turn around and enjoy the views. If you're feeling strong and fresh when you get to the high country, load up on water at Snow Creek and head toward North Dome. If you're tired and worn, find a campsite.

Day 3: Snow Creek to Tenaya (10 mi w/ pack + 6 mi w/o or 12 mi w/ pack + 4 mi w/o 1500' ele - balanced) Depending on what you did the day before I'd either stash my pack, dayhike to North Dome and backtrack or finish exploring the North Dome area. Reminder:Load up on water before you leave Snow Creek; the North Dome area is very dry. You've now seen the best of the North Rim. Personally, I'd backtrack from North Dome to head toward Tenaya but you can also loop if you want to walk a new/different trail (I prefer granite and views to forest hiking but that's just my taste).

Day 4: Tenaya to Glen Aulin. (8 mi 1000' ele - balanced) Skip May Lake. Cross Tioga at Tenaya Lake and head to Glen Aulin on the lower, more direct trail. Head down the Grand Canyon of the Tuolumne about a mile or so to the pool at the base of the falls. Excellent camping (albeit a bit crowded) in the wooded area on the northwest side of of the pool. Dinner at Glen Aulin is definitely worth paying for. I'm not a big fan of breakfast at the High Sierra Camps because I like to be on the trail at sunrise but if you're a late riser, I'd reserve for breakfast at Glen Aulin as well. If you do, you can basically get your food down to snacks after breakfast Day 4 until your resupply at TM.

Day 5: Glen Aulin to Tuolumne Meadows.(7 mi 1000' ele - balanced) Easy hike with unbelievable views, lots of water. Enjoy the half day, let your legs recover and visit the sites (I love the museum) in Tuolumne. The store/post office in TM are adjacent to the Grill for a burger and fry fix. Sleep in the backpackers campground.

Day 6: Tuolumne Meadows to Sunrise+ (12-14 mi 2500' ele - mostly climbing) (I'd get as close to Cloud's Rest as possible). As Chick-on said, the hike out of Tuolumne on the JMT is a bit of a slog until you get to Cathedral Lakes. I've never done the Echo Lake route and didn't know about the "fisherman's trail". "Fisherman's" intrigues me but it's your hike. I'd consider meals at Sunrise a maybe just because it will put you on a timetable that may not fit with how you want to experience that portion of the trail.

Day 7: Sunrise+ to Little Yosemite Valley (8-10 mi w/ pack 5000' ele - mostly descending + 4 mi w/o 4000' ele - balanced) (not sure if you can just "walk in" to LYV). If not, you'll need to camp before you get there. Nothing on the other side for several miles. Enjoy the views at CR and HD. This is another scarce water day. Again, I'd stash my pack on the way up to Half Dome.

Day 8: LYV to Valley via Panorama and 4 Mile (14 mi 4500' ele - mostly descending) Not much to say other than even after all you've seen and done your jaw will still drop at the views.

Day 9: Shower at Curry Village. Eat a lot. Rejoice in the majesty of what you've just experienced.

Finally, I don't really understand the multiple permit issue. I'd just tell the rangers I'm going out on the 20th via Yosemite Falls (or Snow Creek) and returning on the 27th via Ponoho (or 4 Mile) and that I'm working my way around the rim.

Note: I laid this out based on memory. Don't have my maps with me right now. I'll double check mileages and elevations changes and do an edit later today.

Approximate Mileages and Elevation Changes Added.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2013 01:54PM by twarfield.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 25, 2013 01:49PM
Quote
twarfield
Just found your thread. I applaud your ambition but think you may be overestimating the effects of altitude and underestimating what 8 straight days of backpacking (especially those 4000' elevation changes between the valley and the high country) will do to your legs.

Here's what I'd recommend (both to adjust to altitude and some minor adjustments to your itinerary to save your legs) for a Hall of Fame backpacking trip around the rim of the valley. I've specifically set up Days 4 & 5 to be pretty easy hiking days to give your body a chance to recover. Personally, I try to take a down day every 5th or 6th day on a backpack through the Sierras but I like to do 20 mile days.

Day 1: Get to the valley, get your permit, push your activity level enough to get your heart and lungs working, walk around, ride the shuttle, enjoy the tourist attractions (Curry Village, Yosemite Village, Yosemite Falls, Happy Isles, etc,), sleep in the backpacker's campground.

Day 2: Valley to Snow Creek/Tenaya. Leave the valley via Snow Creek Trail out past Mirror Lake. The trail, the views and the solitude on Snow Creek are far superior to Yosemite Falls. Take your time, turn around and enjoy the views. If your feeling strong and fresh when you get to the high country, load up on water at Snow Creek and head toward North Dome. If you're tired and worn, find a campsite.

Day 3: Snow Creek to Tenaya. Depending on what you did the day before I'd either stash my pack, dayhike to North Dome and backtrack or finish exploring the North Dome area. Load up on water before you leave Snow Creek, the North Dome area is very dry. You've now seen the best of the North Rim. Personally, I'd backtrack to head toward Tenaya but you can also loop if you want to walk a new/different trail (I prefer granite and views to forest hiking but that's just my taste).

Day 4: Tenaya to Glen Aulin. Skip May Lake. Cross Tioga at Tenaya Lake and head to Glen Aulin on the lower, more direct trail. Head down the Grand Canyon of the Tuolumne about a mile or so to the pool at the base of the falls. Excellent camping (albeit a bit crowded) in the wooded area on the northwest side of of the pool. Dinner at Glen Aulin is definitely worth paying for. I'm not a big fan of breakfast at the High Sierra Camps because I like to be on the trail at sunrise but if you're a late riser, I'd reserve for breakfast at Glen Aulin as well. If you do, you can basically get your food down to snacks after breakfast Day 4 until your resupply at TM.

Day 5: Glen Aulin to Tuolumne Meadows. Easy hike with unbelievable views, lots of water. Enjoy the half day, let your legs recover and visit the sites (I love the museum) in Tuolumne. The store/post office in TM are adjacent to the Grill for a burger and fry fix. Sleep in the backpackers campground.

Day 6: Tuolumne Meadows to Sunrise+ (I'd get as close to Cloud's Rest as possible). As Chick-on said, the hike out of Tuolumne on the JMT is a bit of a slog until you get to Cathedral Lakes. I've never done the Echo Lake route and didn't know about the "fisherman's trail". "Fisherman's" intrigues me but it's your hike. I'd consider meals at Sunrise a maybe just because it will put you on a timetable that may not fit with how you want to experience that portion of the trail.

Day 7: Sunrise+ to Little Yosemite Valley (not sure if you can just "walk in" to LYV). If not, you'll need to camp before you get there. Nothing on the other side for several miles. Enjoy the views at CR and HD. This is another scarce water day. Again, I'd stash my pack on the way up to Half Dome.

Day 8: LYV to Valley via Panorama and 4 Mile. Not much to say other than even after all you've seen and done your jaw will still drop at the views.

Day 9: Shower at Curry Village. Eat a lot. Rejoice in the majesty of what you've just experienced.

Finally, I don't really understand the multiple permit issue. I'd just tell the rangers I'm going out on the 20th via Yosemite Falls (or Snow Creek) and returning on the 27th via Ponoho (or 4 Mile) and that I'm working my way around the rim.

Note: I laid this out based on memory. Don't have my maps with me right now. I'll double check mileages and elevations changes and do an edit later today.

I'm pretty sure this plan would require 2 extra permits (for each time you cross Tioga Road). These constitute new trailhead entries.
Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 25, 2013 02:05PM
Quote
tomdisco
I'm pretty sure this plan would require 2 extra permits (for each time you cross Tioga Road). These constitute new trailhead entries.
I've never heard of this rule.

Does this mean if I looped from Yosemite Creek through Ten Lakes and May Lake I'd need 3 WPs?
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 25, 2013 02:33PM
Quote
twarfield
Quote
tomdisco
I'm pretty sure this plan would require 2 extra permits (for each time you cross Tioga Road). These constitute new trailhead entries.
I've never heard of this rule.

Does this mean if I looped from Yosemite Creek through Ten Lakes and May Lake I'd need 3 WPs?

I'm sure that the trailhead quota will only apply to your first day. If your hike is continuous one permit will do. If you layover outside the wilderness you may need another permit to reenter.



Old Dude
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 25, 2013 02:36PM
Quote
twarfield
Quote
tomdisco
I'm pretty sure this plan would require 2 extra permits (for each time you cross Tioga Road). These constitute new trailhead entries.
I've never heard of this rule.

Does this mean if I looped from Yosemite Creek through Ten Lakes and May Lake I'd need 3 WPs?

I,m not certain. Normally, the answer is yes but I'm also aware that sometimes people doing the HSC loop are allowed to do it it on one permit. Others on this forum will be more knowledgable on this subject. It would appear to me at least that there have been inconsistencies within the permit offices on this subject of crossing Tioga Road. It's possible they only allow it on the HSC loop. Then, maybe they don't anymore? I just know that when I plan my hikes I make sure it does not include crossing Tioga Road unless I'm prepared to chase multiple trailhead permits.
Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 25, 2013 10:04PM
Quote
tomdisco
I'm pretty sure this plan would require 2 extra permits (for each time you cross Tioga Road). These constitute new trailhead entries. [...] It would appear to me at least that there have been inconsistencies within the permit offices on this subject of crossing Tioga Road.

I never heard of any rule prohibiting crossing Tioga Road; I'm all but certain that the written rules don't say anything about it. The NPS web site explicitly says you don't need a second permit if you are through-hiking the JMT or PCT (which involves crossing Tioga Road).

Empirically, we have done trips crossing Tioga Road and the rangers issuing the permits haven't said anything when we told them our route. In earlier threads multiple other people have told you that they asked this specific question and were told that it's OK to cross the road on a single permit; I'm curious why you still appear to believe otherwise?

Quote
twarfield
Sleep in the backpackers campground [at TM]

Now THAT does require a second permit, for two reasons: there is a break outside the wilderness, and you can't use the BP camp sites on anything except the day before and the day after your complete (one permit) trip.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2013 10:25PM by Royalist.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 26, 2013 01:56PM
Quote
Royalist
Quote
tomdisco
I'm pretty sure this plan would require 2 extra permits (for each time you cross Tioga Road). These constitute new trailhead entries. [...] It would appear to me at least that there have been inconsistencies within the permit offices on this subject of crossing Tioga Road.

I never heard of any rule prohibiting crossing Tioga Road; I'm all but certain that the written rules don't say anything about it. The NPS web site explicitly says you don't need a second permit if you are through-hiking the JMT or PCT (which involves crossing Tioga Road).

Empirically, we have done trips crossing Tioga Road and the rangers issuing the permits haven't said anything when we told them our route. In earlier threads multiple other people have told you that they asked this specific question and were told that it's OK to cross the road on a single permit; I'm curious why you still appear to believe otherwise?

Quote
twarfield
Sleep in the backpackers campground [at TM]

Now THAT does require a second permit, for two reasons: there is a break outside the wilderness, and you can't use the BP camp sites on anything except the day before and the day after your complete (one permit) trip.

Royalist,
Thanks for the clarification. I'm not aware of asking the question before on multiple occasions but will take your word for it. When you reach your 60's you too will enjoy senior moments. They are lots of fun.
Jim
Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 26, 2013 10:39PM
I get what you're saying. Guess I see this as more of a "letter of the law" vs "spirit of the law" thing especially with the 4 trail mile limit in TM which technically (according my my map) means there's no camping at either of the Cathedral Lakes except you can camp there.

@JR If you decide to follow my itinerary, I guess apply for the 2nd permit or start up toward Cathedral a bit earlier or take a quick side trip out to Lyell Canyon to sleep to conform to the "letter of the law".

There've been times where I had to lay over an extra night in a BPCG because I couldn't get a permit or my hiking partner got delayed. Didn't "feel" like cheating and no one said anything about it. I've met PCT thru hikers in the valley BPCG and never felt they were abusing the system. It's the folks who want the BPCG to be an extension of Camp 4 that feel like the cheaters to me.
Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 25, 2013 10:18PM
Quote
twarfield
not sure if you can just "walk in" to LYV

You can, any time after your first night. But I wouldn't want to - crowds of really clueless people and clouds of really nasty dust make this a place to pass through as quickly as possible.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 26, 2013 07:35AM
Responding to the permit questions:

I called YNP a couple of weeks ago to get clarity on this issue of one vs. multiple permits and what I would need. I spoke to the ranger in the permit station (named Martin -- other rangers I first spoke to wanted to transfer me to him specifically to ensure I was getting the right info). According to him you don't need a new permit just to cross Tioga Rd if it is one continuous trek. For example, when I described my proposed itinerary of going North Dome up Snow Creek to May Lake he stopped me, asked if my crossing Tioga was simply putting my feet on the pavement as I crossed without stopping, I said yes that is my plan, he said therefore I am OK to continue on that first permit. But as soon as I mentioned coming down from May Lake to catch the shuttle he said that would end the first permit and I would then need to re-enter on a second permit.

Makes sense to me -- has to do with the concept of 'continuity'. If my plan was to hike from May Lake to a trailhead going south out of TM without interrupting then that would be OK to continue on the original permit. I also suppose it's possible that one could say their plan is one continuous trek to be covered by one permit and then take the shuttle anyway, but that wouldn't be proper. I don't know if a continuous trek that included a burger at the TM snack shop or picking up a package at the TM post office would trigger the need for a new permit or not, the key according to Ranger Martin was my taking the shuttle.

From the info I gathered, hope that clarifies.

Of course, this then renders the quota system semi-useless. Can I enter at JMT/Cathedral trailhead on a new permit? Well it depends on the quota for that day and if I am lucky enough to "win" a slot. But can the very same person enter the very same trailhead on the very same day if hiking down from, say, Glen Aulin on a permit that started days earlier? Go right ahead. Same two feet on the same trail on the same day, in one scenario covered by a quota in the other it is not, so how is the quota system controlling the volume on that particular trail? And a lot of trails attract dayhikers who need no permit in any event. For any given trail it seems that the quota system only controls the volume of overnight starts, not the overall volume. I guess the logic is that it all evens out and comes out in the wash.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2013 08:17AM by JRinGeorgia.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 26, 2013 02:01PM
Take into consideration the impact on not the trails, but the trailhead. In your scenario, those entering on that trailhead may leave a car on Tioga Road, spend a night in the TM camp, take a bigger bite of the amenities; the through-hiker doesn't. When you get a feel for the spirit of the rulebook, it starts to make more sense.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
January 26, 2013 02:07PM
An enforcement ranger once told me the number one reason for quotas was the impact of burying human waste. There are other reasons of course but that was the most important. Whether or not you will get different answers from other rangers in anybody's guess.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2013 02:08PM by tomdisco.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
February 05, 2013 10:58AM
Update: received confirmation on my 2 permits. First one is Porcupine Creek to get to North Dome, Watkins, etc. I decided to list that first rather than Yos Falls or Snow Creek, I listened to some good advice about not climbing 3,000 ft if I don't have to. I'll just take the 8am shuttle up to the trailhead.

Second one confirmed for Budd Creek (thanks again all for suggesting it, I listed as my 2nd choice after Cath Lakes and would have been SOL without that suggestion). QITNL, I'd like to take you up on the GPS tracks when the date gets closer.

Very exciting!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2013 10:58AM by JRinGeorgia.
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
February 05, 2013 12:19PM
Launching from Porcupine Flat is a good idea. Gives you an easy first day, mostly downhill, saves a crowded huff&puff up from the valley. Relax and acclimatize and enjoy the views.

Let's get in touch via email and I'll share some more tracks and suggestions. This isn't stuff I want to publicize and argue on the Internet. Same offer applies to anybody.

And as I always preach, be sure to read your bible!
http://www.amazon.com/Yosemite-National-Park-Complete-Hikers/dp/0899973833
avatar Re: input on itinerary: part II
February 05, 2013 01:41PM
Thanks again for the offer. PM'd you. As for the bible, own it already and been reading a lot!
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